Health results (also DM!!) in the Wolfdog.org database

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

Nothing are 100% clear, but if we publish only official test, one for each dog, step by step, any errors will be revealed soon. If we start to deduce the transmission of genes, as Mendelian, we can make mistake to people of Wolfodog. Off course ufficial aboratory cane make error, but laboratory must answer for their mistakes, in law contest.

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

[koboldine]

Originally Posted by Admin

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

Admin, is this about trust?

Sorry - I just ask because obviously there are people who cheat - or worse - within this breed, but are those more important than the ones who keep everything straight and stick to the rules?

No offence

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

If i buy a puppy that i think is n/n by result deduced by result of parents, information published by Wolfdog and after i test my dog and is n/dm, the Lab the laboratory has no responsibility towards me (but Lab have responsibility toward to owner of the parents of puppy).
Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut). Of course you can have different think about rules, but i write one time more than here is not problema about my idea and your idea...is a problem of existing regulations!

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

If i buy a puppy that i think is n/n by result deduced by result of parents, information published by Wolfdog and after i test my dog and is n/dm, the Lab the laboratory has no responsibility towards me (but Lab have responsibility toward to owner of the parents of puppy).
Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut). Of course you can have different think about rules, but i write one time more than here is not problema about my idea and your idea...is a problem of existing regulations!

You are totally wrong - nobody tells you that the results are OFFICIAL. Nobody cheats you.

YOU as breeder has the whole responsibility. Nobody FORCE you to use a dog with unofficial results. If you do not belive in them JUST DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION to them. If you want to use dogs ONLY with the ofiicial results - just DO IT. It is only up to you. Some people find the results usefull, some not. We have democration.
It is CLEARLY written that there results are not official and it will be explained that they base on the results of the parents/offsprings.

You write about the responsibility of official laboratories. WHICH ONE? There is the possiblity that due to their mistake there will be some DM/DM puppies born. What will do the laboratory??? Replace the puppies? What will they do in the case when the dogs will get ill? CURE them? There is not cure for DM... Pay you the money? Sorry - money is not important if you have a ill dog which you can not help.

You criticize the unoficial results but in MANY cases they can force puppy owners to test their dogs. They can be informed about the danger EVEN if the dog already died or the breeder is hiding the results.
The unofficial results showed for example that one of the most popular Italian stud dogs - Charon - was DM carrier. For years there were dogs who were put down because of "misterous" reasons. Now the offspring owners know how to prevent it - what they must take into consideration.
The same with Crying Wolf dogs - most of them are DM/DM or DM carriers. Till now only two of them are N/N. The breeder seems not to be interested in any tests. But the puppy owners can do something with it and they can see the problem and prevent that there will be no more dogs born who will suffer like Forrest.

Do you think it is wrong what we do? Should we really help to hide the DM-dogs?

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

You are totally wrong - nobody tells you that the results are OFFICIAL. Nobody cheats you.

YOU as breeder has the whole responsibility. Nobody FORCE you to use a dog with unofficial results. If you do not belive in them JUST DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION to them. If you want to use dogs ONLY with the ofiicial results - just DO IT. It is only up to you. Some people find the results usefull, some not. We have democration.
It is CLEARLY written that there results are not official and it will be explained that they base on the results of the parents/offsprings.

You write about the responsibility of official laboratories. WHICH ONE? There is the possiblity that due to their mistake there will be some DM/DM puppies born. What will do the laboratory??? Replace the puppies? What will they do in the case when the dogs will get ill? CURE them? There is not cure for DM... Pay you the money? Sorry - money is not important if you have a ill dog which you can not help.

You criticize the unoficial results but in MANY cases they can force puppy owners to test their dogs. They can be informed about the danger EVEN if the dog already died or the breeder is hiding the results.
The unofficial results showed for example that one of the most popular Italian stud dogs - Charon - was DM carrier. For years there were dogs who were put down because of "misterous" reasons. Now the offspring owners know how to prevent it - what they must take into consideration.
The same with Crying Wolf dogs - most of them are DM/DM or DM carriers. Till now only two of them are N/N. The breeder seems not to be interested in any tests. But the puppy owners can do something with it and they can see the problem and prevent that there will be no more dogs born who will suffer like Forrest.

Do you think it is wrong what we do? Should we really help to hide the DM-dogs?

Yes is wrong to publish data without any title to make this. whether they are related to potential DM or n. There are many dog's with unoficial x rays for dysplasia (good and sick result), we start to publish all?
All think about disease and breeder don't have any sense here. We spoke aboute normal rules to publish genetic result (good and bad, i ask to remove n/n result to my dogs, you remember it?)...

[CDaniela]

Yes, buccal swab is ideal for genetic analysis, it is true. I also prefer working with blood.
I'll write an example that proves that everything is relative ...
Eury z Peronowki was tested in Laboklin. His results-negative. Valkýra z Molu Es tested in Prague (negative) and also in Laboklin - result - negative. Litter B Arqeva (Valkýra x Eury) was tested in Prague - the result - half puppies carrier. Why?
I asked the owner of Eury to repeat the test - the result - the carrier (Laboklin)
Both tests made ​​from the same blood sample.

[hekate]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Yes, buccal swab is ideal for genetic analysis, it is true. I also prefer working with blood.
I'll write an example that proves that everything is relative ...
Eury z Peronowki was tested in Laboklin. His results-negative. Valkýra z Molu Es tested in Prague (negative) and also in Laboklin - result - negative. Litter B Arqeva (Valkýra x Eury) was tested in Prague - the result - half puppies carrier. Why?
I asked the owner of Eury to repeat the test - the result - the carrier (Laboklin)
Both tests made ​​from the same blood sample.

You mean that the results of Laboklin are not trust??

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by hekate

You mean that the results of Laboklin are not trust??

Every human activity brings error. This is a normal process.

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

Yes is wrong to publish data without any title to make this. whether they are related to potential DM or n. There are many dog's with unoficial x rays for dysplasia (good and sick result), we start to publish all?.

Don't you see the difference? Between HD and DM?
The x-ray evaluation is subjective. It depends on the vet who makes it.
Additionally dysplasia is polygenetic (+ environmental influence) - nobody can say which genes the dog have - nobody test it.
So the HD-results of the children say NOTHING (or better said "almost nothing) about the HD-results of the children.

DM and dwarf is something else - a DM/DM dog has its genes not from the air, not thank to the butterlies or bees but "thanks" to the mother and father. Both are DM carriers. The same with N/N results.

Sure people make mistakes - but people work also at the official laboratories. Sure the breeders cheat - but we have presumption of innocence: the majority of the breeders breed according to the rules. The rest - especially the DM test - the "unofficial" can show some cheatings.

Originally Posted by woland77

We spoke aboute normal rules to publish genetic result (good and bad, i ask to remove n/n result to my dogs, you remember it?)...

Yes - and again: if there is no mistake and there is no cheating than the "unofficial" results will be exactly the same like the OFFICIAL results.
IF there will be human mistake then also the official results will not match.

Originally Posted by woland77

No is not the end. Off course lab don't have responsibility about right identification,i never said this..damage is limited if not otherwise regulated by law..This does not mean it does not respond. You must to seek for rules for accreditation (i spoke aboute this, i think is clear)..research institute don't have accrditation to give official result, and research institute don't respond for error (about test, ID is another think)...why? and you want without any accreditation system recognized deduce part or all genotipe of dogs.

You are wrong about the research institutes - the dwarf test are done by a research institute and you GET the certificates.

Sorry but is it not about ACCREDITATION. Yes - the laboratories must have accreditation and must be "responsible" for it. But the are not responsible for HUMAN MISTAKES. If human make mistake you will get "false" results by the puppies. What will do the laboratory? It will NOT loose the accreditation - maybe they will fire the worker who made the mistake. What you and the puppies will reach? NOTHING.

But it is as Daniela and Rona wrote: it is easy to verify the results - it is easy to find out the cheatings and also the mistakes done (also by the official laboratories).

But again - the results basing on the parents and offsprings are not marked "Done by the laboratory Wolfdog" but as "unofficial". You can accept it...or not. Free will. For the breeding it has ONLY good influence.

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut).

I checked the "responsibility" of the official laboratories - you have written them on the pages which you received with the results:

The lab is accredited according to DIN ISO 17025 (AKS-PL-20922)
for the services mentioned above. Responsibility for the
correctness of animal ID data corresponding with the samples
lies in the hands of the sender. Warranty cannot be accepted.
Claim for damages is limited to the amount of the invoice for
the performed lab test if not otherwise regulated by law.

I think it ends the whole disscussion...

[Shadowlands]

Does any data exist correlating the results from cheek swabs vs blood samples? I have just heard of one case where a dog (not mine) was declared N/DM from a cheek swab, and, later, N/N from a blood sample - both tests performed by Laboklin and both samples taken by an independent vet. Should one type of test be more reliable and believable than the other? I am completely confused...

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

I checked the "responsibility" of the official laboratories - you have written them on the pages which you received with the results:

The lab is accredited according to DIN ISO 17025 (AKS-PL-20922)
for the services mentioned above. Responsibility for the
correctness of animal ID data corresponding with the samples
lies in the hands of the sender. Warranty cannot be accepted.
Claim for damages is limited to the amount of the invoice for
the performed lab test if not otherwise regulated by law.

I think it ends the whole disscussion...

No is not the end. Off course lab don't have responsibility about right identification,i never said this..damage is limited if not otherwise regulated by law..This does not mean it does not respond. You must to seek for rules for accreditation (i spoke aboute this, i think is clear)..research institute don't have accrditation to give official result, and research institute don't respond for error (about test, ID is another think)...why? and you want without any accreditation system recognized deduce part or all genotipe of dogs.

To avoid misunderstandings, I express my appreciation for the work performed by the research institute in Prague that has provided estimates on the incidence considerable allelic gene DM in the population of the CSW.