WHy do you love the CSV?

Gypsy Wolf · 07/07/2011, 02h04

I was scrolling through some other posts, and I noticed a post criticizing someone's childhood fascination with the wolf as the reason they are attracted to CSV.
I found this to be an interesting psychological topic, and I think criticism is unfair. Studies in other areas of human evolutionary psychology show that there are certain things in our environment we are attracted to visually, thought to be "hardwired" because they symbolise success... for instance, pastoral scenes with meadows and a babbling brook are soothing and attractive - perfect environment for a human to carve out a living. An attractive person - thought to show genetic fitness... so why would it be different with CSV? In theory, humans were more successful at getting food when they had semi-domesticated dogs assisting them, so it follows that a wolf-y looking dog would be attractive to us naturally.
So I will be honest and say, I am definitely attracted to the CSV's looks, however, that was not the reason I decided to get one...
I am an Ethologist at heart, and LOVE learning dog language and behavior and how they interact in their world. To me, the CSV is the perfect "point" where "wolf" became "dog" - their behavior and communication shows both. I am fascinated seeing them learn by watching (allelomimetic learning) and experimenting. I LOVE their naughtiness (it shows intelligence) and I even love their heirerarchical ranking (even if it means I can't have my GSD lose with Luna anymore) and how clear their communication is. I love everything about them. Even when they are a pain in the ass and eat my new celphone.
So, to me, as long as you are committed to your dog, whose right is it to judge what attracted you to the breed? Why is it wrong to say you are attracted to their looks? You can love wolves and vlcaks, too, without short-changing either... technically, ALL dogs are wolves anyway - both worthy of love and respect...

Nebulosa · 07/07/2011, 08h54

Because is completely wrong to choose a breed looking only on its appearance, wolfdogs are not for everyone and yet it atract many unprepared noobs which wants to make their dreams of have a wolf as pet to "show off" comes true.
They will take the dog and abandon, or try to live with him for many years as possible in not a nice way for the dog, how many wolfdogs are simply forgotten in the backyard or a huge kennel because the owner simply cant handle him? how many wolfdogs are threaded like "wild animals" because the owners have no hand to have such dog, and guilty the "wolf blood of the breed" for its lack of experience and failure in educate the dog?
Isn't everyone which is able to reach "nirvana" to educate their wolfdogs and survive the two first years or three with such hard dog, is not everyone who will remain calm after back home and find their windows, door and even walls damaged by its dog and accept it was their mistake and that punish the dog at that moment will make no effect.
Wolfdogs are dogs with a lot of physical potential and inteligente, mature, and the owner should be able to live with it, nice features to us, but which will be a problem for most people which wish a mere "wolfy-pet".

Gypsy Wolf · 07/07/2011, 19h06

I totally agree that NO DOG should be selected just because of the way they look. The same thing happens with other breeds - not just vlcaks - where the buyers like the "look" of a dog but do not take the time to research what they are really about.
I just think it is unfair to say it is "wrong" to be attracted to the looks of a vlcak - that is part of the package - part of their beauty. Part of their mystique.

07/07/2011, 23h31

Citation:

Envoyé par Lunas Mom

I totally agree that NO DOG should be selected just because of the way they look. The same thing happens with other breeds - not just vlcaks - where the buyers like the "look" of a dog but do not take the time to research what they are really about.
I just think it is unfair to say it is "wrong" to be attracted to the looks of a vlcak - that is part of the package - part of their beauty. Part of their mystique.

I don't think anyone ever meant it that way.

I think they were just talking about how it shouldn't be the ONLY factor in choosing the breed. If I remember correctly, that thread was about the possible mixes in some lines? And it was said, what does it matter if the dog is a mix if all you were looking for was a wolfy looking dog, right? (Sorry, sometimes it's hard to keep ALL of this info straight!) But anyway, if that's the case, it's a matter of breed integrity, you should want the breed because of the predictable temperament as much as the look of the dog. You shouldn't say to hell with it, and throw the dogs' function right out the window, just because you don't give a crap about it.

Gypsy Wolf · 08/07/2011, 00h29

Agreed! With my own dogs, and the very limited breeding I have done, I think the most important quality of the dogs/pedigree and future pups is temperament. I want the correct character in the breed, stability (often hard to come by in my favored breeds), and the ability to "think" as opposed to "react"... and an "off button" is good, too. Skitzy behavior is unacceptable to me.
Health is also a huge factor - I do just about every test imaginable on my breeding stock - hips, elbows, patellas, eyes, heart, thyroid, DM - and making sure their physical conformation is sound is critical.
One of my concerns is the future of the vlcak in the United States. As Marcy co-owns Luna, I am more than happy to have her make the breeding decisions. Right now I have not decided on exactly what I am looking for when it comes to vlcaks... do I retain the European character that accepts less social behavior which might lead to shyness? Or do I select for more bold personalities to "Americanize" the breed a little as so many of them are likely to end up as family companions? Certainly, as in my other breeds, confidence and stability are critical to me - I want my dogs to be known for solid, sound temperaments, and it remains to be seen how challenging developing those characteristics will be given our limited gene pool...

08/07/2011, 00h57

Citation:

Envoyé par Lunas Mom

Right now I have not decided on exactly what I am looking for when it comes to vlcaks... do I retain the European character that accepts less social behavior which might lead to shyness? Or do I select for more bold personalities to "Americanize" the breed a little as so many of them are likely to end up as family companions?

Well, I think your answer right here is in the breed standard.

Regardless of whether it shows up in dogs, shyness in the breed is a disqualifying fault. Therefor, I would think it only natural to breed away from that and towards a more outgoing, stable temperament. Also, for me personally, I feel an aptitude for scent trailing would be a fantastic focus as far as work is concerned. It's something the breed was meant to do, it's something that a more independent working temperament lends itself to (thinking as opposed to blind obedience), and it's a fun activity for both the dog and owner.

Honestly, this temperament is what solidified the breed as the one for me, even though their unique appearance is what lead me to look them up in the first place.

tupacs2legs · 08/07/2011, 01h37

HOws about meeting a few more before even thinking of breeding?

Imo you can't (or shouldn't) 'americanize' the csv its not american! You breed to the breed standard not to what suits you...you don't like it its not the breed for u.

Rona · 08/07/2011, 08h45

Citation:

Envoyé par tupacs2legs

HOws about meeting a few more before even thinking of breeding?

Imo you can't (or shouldn't) 'americanize' the csv its not american! You breed to the breed standard not to what suits you...you don't like it its not the breed for u.

Layla, discussing with somebody like Lunasmom is uselss. It's a complete waste of time. She knows everything about European vlcaks though she has met hardly any.

From what she writes here I can't help feeling that an average sensitive European vlcak owner knows more about his/her dogs' behaviour and training than this "superb trainer and ethologist", and still, their egoes retain at much more decent levels.

Being fed up with this cheap comedy I'm out of the discussions on Pollux, US breeding, etc. Enough is enough

One last piece of advice: don't ask a question guys, if you know what ONE answer you want to get. Will save a lot of other people's time.

Nebulosa · 08/07/2011, 20h15

Citation:

Envoyé par Lunas Mom

do I retain the European character that accepts less social behavior which might lead to shyness?

What?!

I wonder how many european dogs you've met at europe and where you've met these dogs, because it's completely different of what I saw there.

PS: BRUCH I removed your post because it could be interpret as an "stealth advertisement" which is not allowed here.

saschia · 09/07/2011, 11h49

Really, Lunas Mum, what do you consider European in this case? Because if you look at dogs from the countries of origin (Slovakia and Czech republic - just a bith north from Vienna for the map orientation), you could see that we have the strictest rules which say that shy animals are not allowed in the breeding.

Murph · 09/07/2011, 19h48

'the CSV is the perfect "point" where "wolf" became "dog" '
...I thought I knew what you meant by this statement and fully agreed with you....then you said this...

'do I retain the European character that accepts less social behavior which might lead to shyness? Or do I select for more bold personalities to "Americanize" the breed ......!

07/07/2011, 02h04	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Date d'inscription: February 2010 Localisation: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Messages: 252	WHy do you love the CSV? I was scrolling through some other posts, and I noticed a post criticizing someone's childhood fascination with the wolf as the reason they are attracted to CSV. I found this to be an interesting psychological topic, and I think criticism is unfair. Studies in other areas of human evolutionary psychology show that there are certain things in our environment we are attracted to visually, thought to be "hardwired" because they symbolise success... for instance, pastoral scenes with meadows and a babbling brook are soothing and attractive - perfect environment for a human to carve out a living. An attractive person - thought to show genetic fitness... so why would it be different with CSV? In theory, humans were more successful at getting food when they had semi-domesticated dogs assisting them, so it follows that a wolf-y looking dog would be attractive to us naturally. So I will be honest and say, I am definitely attracted to the CSV's looks, however, that was not the reason I decided to get one... I am an Ethologist at heart, and LOVE learning dog language and behavior and how they interact in their world. To me, the CSV is the perfect "point" where "wolf" became "dog" - their behavior and communication shows both. I am fascinated seeing them learn by watching (allelomimetic learning) and experimenting. I LOVE their naughtiness (it shows intelligence) and I even love their heirerarchical ranking (even if it means I can't have my GSD lose with Luna anymore) and how clear their communication is. I love everything about them. Even when they are a pain in the ass and eat my new celphone. So, to me, as long as you are committed to your dog, whose right is it to judge what attracted you to the breed? Why is it wrong to say you are attracted to their looks? You can love wolves and vlcaks, too, without short-changing either... technically, ALL dogs are wolves anyway - both worthy of love and respect...

07/07/2011, 08h54	#2
Nebulosa Moderator Date d'inscription: October 2004 Localisation: Rio Grande do Sul Messages: 1 334	Because is completely wrong to choose a breed looking only on its appearance, wolfdogs are not for everyone and yet it atract many unprepared noobs which wants to make their dreams of have a wolf as pet to "show off" comes true. They will take the dog and abandon, or try to live with him for many years as possible in not a nice way for the dog, how many wolfdogs are simply forgotten in the backyard or a huge kennel because the owner simply cant handle him? how many wolfdogs are threaded like "wild animals" because the owners have no hand to have such dog, and guilty the "wolf blood of the breed" for its lack of experience and failure in educate the dog? Isn't everyone which is able to reach "nirvana" to educate their wolfdogs and survive the two first years or three with such hard dog, is not everyone who will remain calm after back home and find their windows, door and even walls damaged by its dog and accept it was their mistake and that punish the dog at that moment will make no effect. Wolfdogs are dogs with a lot of physical potential and inteligente, mature, and the owner should be able to live with it, nice features *to us*, but which will be a problem for most people which wish a mere "wolfy-pet". __________________

09/07/2011, 11h49	#10
saschia Member Date d'inscription: September 2003 Localisation: Bratislava Messages: 936	Really, Lunas Mum, what do you consider European in this case? Because if you look at dogs from the countries of origin (Slovakia and Czech republic - just a bith north from Vienna for the map orientation), you could see that we have the strictest rules which say that shy animals are not allowed in the breeding. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

07/07/2011, 19h06	#3
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Date d'inscription: February 2010 Localisation: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Messages: 252	I totally agree that NO DOG should be selected just because of the way they look. The same thing happens with other breeds - not just vlcaks - where the buyers like the "look" of a dog but do not take the time to research what they are really about. I just think it is unfair to say it is "wrong" to be attracted to the looks of a vlcak - that is part of the package - part of their beauty. Part of their mystique.

08/07/2011, 00h29	#5
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Date d'inscription: February 2010 Localisation: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Messages: 252	Agreed! With my own dogs, and the very limited breeding I have done, I think the most important quality of the dogs/pedigree and future pups is temperament. I want the correct character in the breed, stability (often hard to come by in my favored breeds), and the ability to "think" as opposed to "react"... and an "off button" is good, too. Skitzy behavior is unacceptable to me. Health is also a huge factor - I do just about every test imaginable on my breeding stock - hips, elbows, patellas, eyes, heart, thyroid, DM - and making sure their physical conformation is sound is critical. One of my concerns is the future of the vlcak in the United States. As Marcy co-owns Luna, I am more than happy to have her make the breeding decisions. Right now I have not decided on exactly what I am looking for when it comes to vlcaks... do I retain the European character that accepts less social behavior which might lead to shyness? Or do I select for more bold personalities to "Americanize" the breed a little as so many of them are likely to end up as family companions? Certainly, as in my other breeds, confidence and stability are critical to me - I want my dogs to be known for solid, sound temperaments, and it remains to be seen how challenging developing those characteristics will be given our limited gene pool...

08/07/2011, 01h37	#7
tupacs2legs rookie Date d'inscription: April 2009 Localisation: london Messages: 320	HOws about meeting a few more before even thinking of breeding? Imo you can't (or shouldn't) 'americanize' the csv its not american! You breed to the breed standard not to what suits you...you don't like it its not the breed for u.

09/07/2011, 19h48	#11
Murph Junior Member Date d'inscription: May 2010 Localisation: Devon Messages: 54	'the CSV is the perfect "point" where "wolf" became "dog" ' ...I thought I knew what you meant by this statement and fully agreed with you....then you said this... 'do I retain the European character that accepts less social behavior which might lead to shyness? Or do I select for more bold personalities to "Americanize" the breed ......!