DM is more spread in the breed then we thought!

massimo · 26-07-2010, 15:50

I just want to underline once again that Blaming a breeder is NOT important in this case, DM is a recent thing (not the illness but the widespread knowledge we have about it) therefore it is USELESS to start blaming this or that breeder because of the breeding plans he did.
We should all CHANGE our perspective now...
It is POSSIBLE to breed dogs in a wide variety even if they are not N/N, all we have to do is to pay a LOT of attention.
Of course, If I have a positive dog, I would be careful which male or female I would use her/him with, but it doesn't mean the dog MUST be put out of breeding.
So, it is important to underline and stress the fact that, just because a breeder made a test on his reproducers and found out somebody is carrier or positive, this is NOT to be condemned, but instead , it is good information and will allow to make FUTURE breeding plans without the "ghost" of making a DM Positive dog.
I personally have more esteem and respect for a breeder who has a certified positive DM dog than for one who has many dogs with NO results.
I'd personally go for the Positive DM dog who is mated in an appropriate way than no info at all....

massimo · 27-07-2010, 13:07

I read on Italian forum that if somebody found his/her dog as carrier, they would sterilize the dog.
That is REALLY a hysterical reaction, totally WRONG.
I hope everybody doesn't get hysterical about things.
A POSITIVE dog is not a SICK dog, he just is "at risk" for DM.
A CARRIER or NEGATIVE dog will never be sick for DM

DM/DM=Positive (He "could" be sick of DM, he surely will pass the gene but only "risk" about illness)
DM/N=Carrier (he CANNOT be sick of DM, he "could" pass the gene)
N/N= Negative (non può avere DM, he CANNOT pass the gene)

This is obvious to many but it seems not to ALL:

Possible Combinations:
DM/DM + DM/DM = DM/DM 100%
DM/DM + DM/N = DM/DM 75%, DM/N 25%
DM/DM + N/N = DM/N 100%
DM/N + DM/N = DM/DM 25%, DM/N 50%, N/N 25%
DM/N + N/N = DM/N 25%, N/N 75%
N/N + N/N = N/N 100%

The "risky" couplings are the ones indicated in bold
No mating will SURELY give sick dogs, because even a Positive dog can be super healthy till he dies.
I believe best would be to "avoid" risky matings but not to condemn them.

It is true, if you don't care about making puppies it's not so important to make the test...BUT
if you do make the test
1)you give indirect information about the parents of your dog ( a N/N dog CANNOT come from a DM/DM dog, a DM/DM dog CANNOT come from an N/N dog)
2) you will be more careful about the illness if you know your dog is DM/DM, you will be more careful about symptoms, and eventual cures that will be discovered.
3) you will anyway contribute to map the illness/genetic predisposition and to help find out if it's as widespread as is believed or if it is a minor problem for our breed.

Mikael · 27-07-2010, 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

I read on Italian forum that if somebody found his/her dog as carrier, they would sterilize the dog.

Are they totally crazy

please Massimo translate Mijkes topic about DM to Italian

Very best regards / Mikael

massimo · 27-07-2010, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Are they totally crazy

please Massimo translate Mijkes topic about DM to Italian

Very best regards / Mikael

Believe me...on Italian forum has been written a lot more than here, just that people tend to be affected by hysteria, so short recaps (like I did both here and there) are sometimes necessary.
Not crazy nor stupid... just distracted, excited, scared...

Gypsy Wolf · 27-07-2010, 17:18

It is foolish to remove A/A dogs from the gene pool if they have qualities we need in the breed - not to mention simply keeping our gene pool from becoming too small... carefully planned breeding, with screening for the genes, is what we need to do. Of course it is every breeders choice whether they screen or breed to Abnormal dogs...
A/A dogs are only at risk for DM, as stated before. Apparently there are other factors (perhaps developmental, nutritional, environmental) that affect whether or not the dog develops the disease.
Here in FL we are lucky to have Dr. Clemmons, a world-renowned expert on the disease who actually found the genes and devised the test. He also has designed a specific nutritional, vitamin/mineral/nutroceutical program for those dogs that have DM, and has advocated putting at risk dogs on the program, too, with the hopes of staving off contracting the symptoms. It is really unknown whether or not this affects progression of the disease, as it is so variable in progression from patient to patient, so even a "control" group of DM dogs is not necessarily going to help prove efficacy of the program.
I have spoken to him several times on the phone regarding DM, as I have had several friends with dogs who have contracted the disease, and I also have GSDs and occasionally breed my GSD. He feels that up to 50% of GSDs carry an Abnormal allele - whether they are A/N or A/A - so testing is important. Interestingly, I am the only breeder I know of in this area that tests for it. The other breeders I know down here scoff at the test saying it's "too new" and "doesn't mean anything." Personally, I think they are afraid of knowing if their dogs are carrying the genetics... that would mean they would have to inform puppy buyers, and potentially remove some of their stock. One breeder I know cranks out puppies for profit (she has well-bred parents - SchH titled sire) and is already on her "P" litter after only about 3 years of breeding... I personally know her male is a carrier, but she doesn't care and is not going to test her bitches, puppies or even mention the disease to her buyers. I wonder what will happen a few years down the road when some of those buyers tell her their dog is afflicted with DM? It is a genetically-based disease, and her contract guarantees genetic health. Here in FL she would be responsible for not only the purchase price of the puppy, but all the resultant medical bills, too. So stupid to ignore a problem like that - ethically and financially, in her case.
It's one thing if you don't know, and have no way of finding out, but it's another to turn a blind eye to such a debilitating disease... to knowingly produce Abnormal animals, that may potentially be used for breeding themselves... morally reprehensible, in my opinion, and a disservice to the breed.

draggar · 31-08-2010, 23:41

OK, I am mad, annoyed, and highly disappointed in the GSD community now.

Over 24 hours ago I posted a "why don't breeders test for DM" in a popular German shepherd based forum. I went into the benefits of testing, how it can be used, even the minimal costs of the tests ($130 for a breeding pair!!).

The thread has had 31 views. Anyone want to take a guess at how many responses?

25? Nope, lower.

20? Nope, lower.

15? Nope, lower.

5??? Nope, lower.

1???? Nope, lower.

That's right, not a single person (and there are many breeders on the forum) responded. Are German shepherd "professionals" this apathetic towards the test? Do they just not care??

All well as responses I get from so-called ethical breeders (like, "we don't test because it's not in our lines" or "we've never had an issue with DM so we don't test for it", and "the test isn't worth it").

Whiskey
Tango
Foxtrot

Seriously, is this where the breed is headed? It's easy to breed DM into dogs and I'm sure it won't be long until DM is a serious issue (well, moreso than it is now). Statistically, 50% of GSDs are carriers (N/A or A/N) and only 25% are clear (N/N) (and the other 25% are affected (A/A).

I'm just glad that we tested Kiri and she's N/N. We can breed her to any male and guarantee (short of any genetic mutation, which the chances are extremely small) that her puppies WILL NOT develop DM - EVER.

massimo · 09-10-2010, 14:52

Just for Public info as there is not a "DM" space to be put on WD dog profile yet (hope there will be soon)

Echo Crying Wolf
DM N/N = Negative

26-07-2010, 15:50	#1
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	I just want to underline once again that Blaming a breeder is NOT important in this case, DM is a recent thing (not the illness but the widespread knowledge we have about it) therefore it is USELESS to start blaming this or that breeder because of the breeding plans he did. We should all CHANGE our perspective now... It is POSSIBLE to breed dogs in a wide variety even if they are not N/N, all we have to do is to pay a LOT of attention. Of course, If I have a positive dog, I would be careful which male or female I would use her/him with, but it doesn't mean the dog MUST be put out of breeding. So, it is important to underline and stress the fact that, just because a breeder made a test on his reproducers and found out somebody is carrier or positive, this is NOT to be condemned, but instead , it is good information and will allow to make FUTURE breeding plans without the "ghost" of making a DM Positive dog. I personally have more esteem and respect for a breeder who has a certified positive DM dog than for one who has many dogs with NO results. I'd personally go for the Positive DM dog who is mated in an appropriate way than no info at all.... __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

27-07-2010, 13:07	#2
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	I read on Italian forum that if somebody found his/her dog as carrier, they would sterilize the dog. That is REALLY a hysterical reaction, totally WRONG. I hope everybody doesn't get hysterical about things. A POSITIVE dog is not a SICK dog, he just is "at risk" for DM. A CARRIER or NEGATIVE dog will never be sick for DM DM/DM=Positive (He "could" be sick of DM, he surely will pass the gene but only "risk" about illness) DM/N=Carrier (he CANNOT be sick of DM, he "could" pass the gene) N/N= Negative (non può avere DM, he CANNOT pass the gene) This is obvious to many but it seems not to ALL: Possible Combinations: DM/DM + DM/DM = DM/DM 100% DM/DM + DM/N = DM/DM 75%, DM/N 25% DM/DM + N/N = DM/N 100% DM/N + DM/N = DM/DM 25%, DM/N 50%, N/N 25% DM/N + N/N = DM/N 25%, N/N 75% N/N + N/N = N/N 100% The "risky" couplings are the ones indicated in bold No mating will SURELY give sick dogs, because even a Positive dog can be super healthy till he dies. I believe best would be to "avoid" risky matings but not to condemn them. It is true, if you don't care about making puppies it's not so important to make the test...BUT if you do make the test 1)you give indirect information about the parents of your dog ( a N/N dog CANNOT come from a DM/DM dog, a DM/DM dog CANNOT come from an N/N dog) 2) you will be more careful about the illness if you know your dog is DM/DM, you will be more careful about symptoms, and eventual cures that will be discovered. 3) you will anyway contribute to map the illness/genetic predisposition and to help find out if it's as widespread as is believed or if it is a minor problem for our breed. __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

31-08-2010, 23:41	#6
draggar Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 370	OK, I am mad, annoyed, and highly disappointed in the GSD community now. Over 24 hours ago I posted a "why don't breeders test for DM" in a popular German shepherd based forum. I went into the benefits of testing, how it can be used, even the minimal costs of the tests ($130 for a breeding pair!!). The thread has had 31 views. Anyone want to take a guess at how many responses? 25? Nope, lower. 20? Nope, lower. 15? Nope, lower. 5??? Nope, lower. 1???? Nope, lower. That's right, not a single person (and there are many breeders on the forum) responded. Are German shepherd "professionals" this apathetic towards the test? Do they just not care?? All well as responses I get from so-called ethical breeders (like, "we don't test because it's not in our lines" or "we've never had an issue with DM so we don't test for it", and "the test isn't worth it"). Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Seriously, is this where the breed is headed? It's easy to breed DM into dogs and I'm sure it won't be long until DM is a serious issue (well, moreso than it is now). Statistically, 50% of GSDs are carriers (N/A or A/N) and only 25% are clear (N/N) (and the other 25% are affected (A/A). I'm just glad that we tested Kiri and she's N/N. We can breed her to any male and guarantee (short of any genetic mutation, which the chances are extremely small) that her puppies WILL NOT develop DM - EVER. __________________ Fred Lanting's Official Site Dog Actors

09-10-2010, 14:52	#7
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	Just for Public info as there is not a "DM" space to be put on WD dog profile yet (hope there will be soon) Echo Crying Wolf DM N/N = Negative __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

27-07-2010, 17:18	#5
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	It is foolish to remove A/A dogs from the gene pool if they have qualities we need in the breed - not to mention simply keeping our gene pool from becoming too small... carefully planned breeding, with screening for the genes, is what we need to do. Of course it is every breeders choice whether they screen or breed to Abnormal dogs... A/A dogs are only at risk for DM, as stated before. Apparently there are other factors (perhaps developmental, nutritional, environmental) that affect whether or not the dog develops the disease. Here in FL we are lucky to have Dr. Clemmons, a world-renowned expert on the disease who actually found the genes and devised the test. He also has designed a specific nutritional, vitamin/mineral/nutroceutical program for those dogs that have DM, and has advocated putting at risk dogs on the program, too, with the hopes of staving off contracting the symptoms. It is really unknown whether or not this affects progression of the disease, as it is so variable in progression from patient to patient, so even a "control" group of DM dogs is not necessarily going to help prove efficacy of the program. I have spoken to him several times on the phone regarding DM, as I have had several friends with dogs who have contracted the disease, and I also have GSDs and occasionally breed my GSD. He feels that up to 50% of GSDs carry an Abnormal allele - whether they are A/N or A/A - so testing is important. Interestingly, I am the only breeder I know of in this area that tests for it. The other breeders I know down here scoff at the test saying it's "too new" and "doesn't mean anything." Personally, I think they are afraid of knowing if their dogs are carrying the genetics... that would mean they would have to inform puppy buyers, and potentially remove some of their stock. One breeder I know cranks out puppies for profit (she has well-bred parents - SchH titled sire) and is already on her "P" litter after only about 3 years of breeding... I personally know her male is a carrier, but she doesn't care and is not going to test her bitches, puppies or even mention the disease to her buyers. I wonder what will happen a few years down the road when some of those buyers tell her their dog is afflicted with DM? It is a genetically-based disease, and her contract guarantees genetic health. Here in FL she would be responsible for not only the purchase price of the puppy, but all the resultant medical bills, too. So stupid to ignore a problem like that - ethically and financially, in her case. It's one thing if you don't know, and have no way of finding out, but it's another to turn a blind eye to such a debilitating disease... to knowingly produce Abnormal animals, that may potentially be used for breeding themselves... morally reprehensible, in my opinion, and a disservice to the breed.