DM is more spread in the breed then we thought!

saschia · 06-07-2010, 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Do you remember that you have been in germany in may to the speciality with your dwarf 6 month old csw? Afterwards we had some pn contact. People over there told me that that dwarf pup is from Ondraj. I did not know that it is your pup. When we were in contact, I did ask you, if it is true what I heard? I got til today no answer.

I think it is just the stated reason. Why do you want to know which breeder it is from? The breeder is not guilty of producing the dwarf pup and therefore should not be punished by negative references. Why do you speculate and try to deduce the information that a person, who knows about the disease and promotes the mechanisms to eradicate it, does not want to reveal? Mijke has very good reason - this one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina

It would be a good thing if people start to be honest and breeders would not breed with ill dogs, like your breeder did. Maybe he did not know till his litter came. But now he has to stop breeding his bitch.

What you write is not true! First, nobody sane breeds with dog affected by dwarfism or DM, or any such crippling disease. They may breed the carriers only. And it is OK to breed carriers! It is only important not to combine them with other carriers. If you stop all carriers from breedeing, you will have only a small population of dogs, and you yourself say that inbreeding is a bad thing.

Lot of people would not buy from breeders that are known to have carriers, so how can you expect them to advertise it? That is what keeps a lot of people from testing their animals - they are afraid of a witch hunt just like yours.

jasmine · 06-07-2010, 16:16

You are right.Many people are philistin.

saschia · 06-07-2010, 16:23

Just a quick math to show why breeding carriers is OK:

Let's say A is gene for DM or dwafism - single gene disorder. The form A is normal, the form a is mutant. So AA is clean, Aa is carrier and aa is affected (on the level of genome, in case of DM it does not have to show).

If you combine carrier Aa with clean AA, you'll get these possibilities: 50% AA, 50% Aa. So no pups will be affected and any pup has a 50% probability that it is a carrier, but also 50% probability that it is clean!

If you combine two carriers, you'll get 25% AA, 50% Aa and 25% aa. But, in dwarfism, some dwarves die before being born, in DM not all affected animals actually get sick. So any live-born pup has a 50% chance of being carrier, 25% chance of being clean, and less than 25% chance of being affected and sick. If you have a rare bloodline, even combining carriers might be more beneficial to the whole population, than loss of the genetic material. The dog may be DM carrier, but it may also be, at the same time, clean for dwarfism, or other genetic disorders...

The more disorders you can test for, the more difficult it is to find good combinations, so it is important to keep in mind that sometimes the risks should be taken, and although it is very sad if a pup is born sick, it is still more sad if no pups are born at all.

yukidomari · 06-07-2010, 17:16

Good post, Saschia.

Very interesting and heartening to read so many knowledgeable posts and to know that there are many people who care about this topic a lot.

06-07-2010, 16:23	#3
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	Just a quick math to show why breeding carriers is OK: Let's say A is gene for DM or dwafism - single gene disorder. The form A is normal, the form a is mutant. So AA is clean, Aa is carrier and aa is affected (on the level of genome, in case of DM it does not have to show). If you combine carrier Aa with clean AA, you'll get these possibilities: 50% AA, 50% Aa. So no pups will be affected and any pup has a 50% probability that it is a carrier, but also 50% probability that it is clean! If you combine two carriers, you'll get 25% AA, 50% Aa and 25% aa. But, in dwarfism, some dwarves die before being born, in DM not all affected animals actually get sick. So any live-born pup has a 50% chance of being carrier, 25% chance of being clean, and less than 25% chance of being affected and sick. If you have a rare bloodline, even combining carriers might be more beneficial to the whole population, than loss of the genetic material. The dog may be DM carrier, but it may also be, at the same time, clean for dwarfism, or other genetic disorders... The more disorders you can test for, the more difficult it is to find good combinations, so it is important to keep in mind that sometimes the risks should be taken, and although it is very sad if a pup is born sick, it is still more sad if no pups are born at all. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

06-07-2010, 16:16	#2
jasmine Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 188	You are right.Many people are philistin.

06-07-2010, 17:16	#4
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Good post, Saschia. Very interesting and heartening to read so many knowledgeable posts and to know that there are many people who care about this topic a lot.