Pituitary Dwarfism test for CsW is available!

mijke · 09-01-2010, 03:04

For your age the minimum fixed gross salary (without the 30 % tax you have to pay for this) is in my country about € 1270,- ( the same as family without work with 2 kids gets) So don't think the fairy tales about the "LUXERY WEST EUROPE" are always true for everyone here! (I know a boy of 26 with 2 different official university degrees who earns gross salary € 1850 (without the 30 % tax) and that is not any exception.)
Only the "happy few" here make more then 2 or 3 times double.

But for me it is not interesting at all to discuss about salary, price of puppy's and so on!
For everyone it is a relative high price!

And when the university sell the test in e few years to a commercial laboratory, it depends of "the market" if it become higher or less.

For everyone for who is breeding as a hobby to improve a breed, it costs money (like every other hobby!)

And for your info: I don't have any benefits for this test! And I did make the test with my female after she was sterilized.

But it is always the personal choice of a owner/breeder to invest in any DNA test for the benefit of the breed for the future.

And when they don't make combinations carrier x carrier they have affords (like for example no dwarfs in a litter, less dead born pups or pups that die in first days, bigger litter. Because pituitary dwarfism is/can be the reason for these things)

And till today I am very grateful that some Dutch, Belgium and Denmark people did invest a lot of money in the test, without any obligation!
AND that they did gave permission to publish test results!

Thanks to them we could see that in 30 tested CsW's from different lines were 6 carriers.
And it is clear that this disease is more spread in the bread then we did expect.
And even when others don't test, dwarfism is one of the real problems in this bread.

But in the 6 carriers are also good CsW's (conform bonitation and HD) that will be breed in future!

And that is good , because excluding all dogs that are carrier of this or other genetic diseases would destroy a breed!
When your male or female is carrier just ask the other party to make a test!

Vaiva · 09-01-2010, 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

For your age the minimum fixed gross salary (without the 30 % tax you have to pay for this) is in my country about € 1270,- ( the same as family without work with 2 kids gets) So don't think the fairy tales about the "LUXERY WEST EUROPE" are always true for everyone here!

And the minimum fixed salary in Lithuania is a little bit more than 200 euro

(also you still have to pay the tax, if I am not mistaken)
But it is not the topic.
Maybe I've mist something, but what is the reason it is not possible to make the same test in other countries, other labs?

Maybe that would be the simple way of making more DNA tests for wolfdogs?

michaelundinaeichhorn · 09-01-2010, 09:42

DNA tests normally are invented by a research-group, they nowadays get a patent (I hope the word is the same in English) and then use it themself or sell it to a commercial lab. DNA-research is expensive, at least in Germany the universities have a chronic lack of money. This is the reason why very often only one lab has the test. Other groups work on the same problems or improve the first published test so on long term there are more labs and cheaper tests.
But DNA-testing is at its beginning it will take time.

This brings us back to the idea of an international DNA-database. Mijke has found a cheap lab as far as I remember. Everybody can look in his own country for tests and labs and we can use it alltogether.

Ina

Vaiva · 09-01-2010, 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

DNA tests normally are invented by a research-group, they nowadays get a patent (I hope the word is the same in English) and then use it themself or sell it to a commercial lab. DNA-research is expensive, at least in Germany the universities have a chronic lack of money. This is the reason why very often only one lab has the test. Other groups work on the same problems or improve the first published test so on long term there are more labs and cheaper tests.
But DNA-testing is at its beginning it will take time.

This brings us back to the idea of an international DNA-database. Mijke has found a cheap lab as far as I remember. Everybody can look in his own country for tests and labs and we can use it alltogether.

Ina

Sorry if my questions sound stupidly, but I really do not understand anything about the way these tests are done. A lab in Lithuania, making DNA tests for people and dogs (for dogs only to check if the parents are the same as written in pedigrees

) says, that they have a possibility to make any tests, they just need to buy the samples

So I could ask them about the possibility to make the tests in Lithuania - maybe that would be cheaper? I just need to know if the same test suits for, let's say, GSD

Could anyone be so kind and explain this more clearly?

michaelundinaeichhorn · 09-01-2010, 10:22

To do a test you have to know exactly what gene causes the disease, so first you start with finding out if a disease is inherited and which way is likely (recessiv, dominant, autosomal, etc) than you need to find out which mutation of a gene ore genes (more often and much more complicated) causes it. For that you need a group of dogs with this disease. Then you build up a test for marking this mutation, then you verify the test for the breed you worked with (look if it really shows all carriers and ill dogs), the you make the next step to find out of the same disease is caused by the same mutation in different breeds (what is very often not the case!) and verify it for different breeds. This takes very often years.

You are carfull in publishing during this period because very often there are different groups working on one problem and who is succesfull first earns the money and the fame.

jmvdwiel · 09-01-2010, 10:26

I don't think the test is being sold yet

, the university did put a lot of energy and money in it to develop the test. And of course they have to get some money back before they wil sell the test.
The test was very hard to develop because the dwarf-allele where hard to find in the DNA.

But maybe.. if you can get lots of samples (about 50 or so) maybe they are willing to give you some discount.
In Holland we managed to get 7 samples at the clubmatch, so I think it would be possible for other countries to get more samples. Maybe you can find a veterinarian that want to draw some blood for free as a hobby

(just like we did in Holland)
Maybe it is possible to fundraise some money especially for the dwarf test, and what you can do is only testing the new parents of litters and ask a little bit more for the puppies.
Ans as Maike says probably you wil end with more alive puppies in a litter and only if you have 1 pup more in a litter you wil have your money back from the test.

mijke · 09-01-2010, 16:10

Thanks Ina and Judith for explanation!

The university is working on the specific scientific report that will be published. When it is published they will also sell the test to a commercial laboratory.

In the mean time they did not want to lose time for breeds that they can test now (GSD, SWH and CsW) So besides their other work they make the test .

I don't know if they have possibility (time) to test a very big group and give discount.
But I already did ask them to think about this.

And they did promise me to think and speak about this.
Next week I hope to receive their answer.

canislupus · 10-01-2010, 17:33

Hello,

I will test my two dogs as well, so we can start counting with them...

Tanja

Vaiva · 11-01-2010, 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

Thanks Ina and Judith for explanation!

The university is working on the specific scientific report that will be published. When it is published they will also sell the test to a commercial laboratory.

In the mean time they did not want to lose time for breeds that they can test now (GSD, SWH and CsW) So besides their other work they make the test .

I don't know if they have possibility (time) to test a very big group and give discount.
But I already did ask them to think about this.

And they did promise me to think and speak about this.
Next week I hope to receive their answer.

I also sent a request to the lab in LT, you know, just in case

If this test also "works" for GSD, that makes more possibilities to make it also here.

robertomaggio · 05-06-2011, 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

For your age the minimum fixed gross salary (without the 30 % tax you have to pay for this) is in my country about € 1270,- ( the same as family without work with 2 kids gets) So don't think the fairy tales about the "LUXERY WEST EUROPE" are always true for everyone here! (I know a boy of 26 with 2 different official university degrees who earns gross salary € 1850 (without the 30 % tax) and that is not any exception.)
Only the "happy few" here make more then 2 or 3 times double.

But for me it is not interesting at all to discuss about salary, price of puppy's and so on!
For everyone it is a relative high price!

And when the university sell the test in e few years to a commercial laboratory, it depends of "the market" if it become higher or less.

For everyone for who is breeding as a hobby to improve a breed, it costs money (like every other hobby!)

And for your info: I don't have any benefits for this test! And I did make the test with my female after she was sterilized.

But it is always the personal choice of a owner/breeder to invest in any DNA test for the benefit of the breed for the future.

And when they don't make combinations carrier x carrier they have affords (like for example no dwarfs in a litter, less dead born pups or pups that die in first days, bigger litter. Because pituitary dwarfism is/can be the reason for these things)

And till today I am very grateful that some Dutch, Belgium and Denmark people did invest a lot of money in the test, without any obligation!
AND that they did gave permission to publish test results!

Thanks to them we could see that in 30 tested CsW's from different lines were 6 carriers.
And it is clear that this disease is more spread in the bread then we did expect.
And even when others don't test, dwarfism is one of the real problems in this bread.

But in the 6 carriers are also good CsW's (conform bonitation and HD) that will be breed in future!

And that is good , because excluding all dogs that are carrier of this or other genetic diseases would destroy a breed!
When your male or female is carrier just ask the other party to make a test!

Hello Mijke
I'm Roberto from Italia and I just make test of DM,Hd etcc in all my dogs and now I want to make test for Dwarfism but I receive this mail back from LABOKLIN:
Hello,

"we test the mutation that is known to cause dwarfism. The test does not exclude dwarfism due to possible but yet unknwon further mutation or non genetic backround."

At this point I'm not sure about guarantee that if my dogs are CLEAR in future will be possible that gene change etccc.
Sorry if I don't understand well but I'm sure that you can help me in correct explanation
Ciao
Roberto

mijke · 07-06-2011, 23:46

The univeristy of Holland is on this moment the only place where the dwarfism test can be done.
Also Laboklin is sending DNA of dogs to holland for the dwarfism test.

The Dwarfism test is testing if a dog has the gene mutation for Pituitary dwarfism.
When you have test a dog and he is Free he will be always Free for this gene mutation!

All the Csw dwarfs that were tested did have the same gene mutation that causes pituitary dwarfism.
But as metionend before : there are sometimes other reasons why a dog is very small. And this has nothing to do with pituitary dwarfism!

It is very strange that Laboklin did send such mails about the dwarfims test.
Because there can always appear new gene mutations in a breed.
And theoretical it is possible that there will appear in future an other gene mutation that causes an other form of a disease.

But that is possible for all the genetic diseases we know now!!

So it is a bit strange to mention this only for pituitary dwarfism!

09-01-2010, 03:04	#1
mijke Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Warnsveld Posts: 2,033	For your age the minimum fixed gross salary (without the 30 % tax you have to pay for this) is in my country about € 1270,- ( the same as family without work with 2 kids gets) So don't think the fairy tales about the "LUXERY WEST EUROPE" are always true for everyone here! (I know a boy of 26 with 2 different official university degrees who earns gross salary € 1850 (without the 30 % tax) and that is not any exception.) Only the "happy few" here make more then 2 or 3 times double. But for me it is not interesting at all to discuss about salary, price of puppy's and so on! For everyone it is a relative high price! And when the university sell the test in e few years to a commercial laboratory, it depends of "the market" if it become higher or less. For everyone for who is breeding as a hobby to improve a breed, it costs money (like every other hobby!) And for your info: I don't have any benefits for this test! And I did make the test with my female after she was sterilized. But it is always the personal choice of a owner/breeder to invest in any DNA test for the benefit of the breed for the future. And when they don't make combinations carrier x carrier they have affords (like for example no dwarfs in a litter, less dead born pups or pups that die in first days, bigger litter. Because pituitary dwarfism is/can be the reason for these things) And till today I am very grateful that some Dutch, Belgium and Denmark people did invest a lot of money in the test, without any obligation! AND that they did gave permission to publish test results! Thanks to them we could see that in 30 tested CsW's from different lines were 6 carriers. And it is clear that this disease is more spread in the bread then we did expect. And even when others don't test, dwarfism is one of the real problems in this bread. But in the 6 carriers are also good CsW's (conform bonitation and HD) that will be breed in future! And that is good , because excluding all dogs that are carrier of this or other genetic diseases would destroy a breed! When your male or female is carrier just ask the other party to make a test! __________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!

09-01-2010, 10:26	#6
jmvdwiel Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,061	I don't think the test is being sold yet , the university did put a lot of energy and money in it to develop the test. And of course they have to get some money back before they wil sell the test. The test was very hard to develop because the dwarf-allele where hard to find in the DNA. But maybe.. if you can get lots of samples (about 50 or so) maybe they are willing to give you some discount. In Holland we managed to get 7 samples at the clubmatch, so I think it would be possible for other countries to get more samples. Maybe you can find a veterinarian that want to draw some blood for free as a hobby (just like we did in Holland) Maybe it is possible to fundraise some money especially for the dwarf test, and what you can do is only testing the new parents of litters and ask a little bit more for the puppies. Ans as Maike says probably you wil end with more alive puppies in a litter and only if you have 1 pup more in a litter you wil have your money back from the test. Last edited by jmvdwiel; 09-01-2010 at 11:02.

09-01-2010, 16:10	#7
mijke Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Warnsveld Posts: 2,033	Thanks Ina and Judith for explanation! The university is working on the specific scientific report that will be published. When it is published they will also sell the test to a commercial laboratory. In the mean time they did not want to lose time for breeds that they can test now (GSD, SWH and CsW) So besides their other work they make the test . I don't know if they have possibility (time) to test a very big group and give discount. But I already did ask them to think about this. And they did promise me to think and speak about this. Next week I hope to receive their answer. __________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!

10-01-2010, 17:33	#8
canislupus Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: 33165 Ebbinghausen/Paderborn Posts: 400	Hello, I will test my two dogs as well, so we can start counting with them... Tanja __________________ Alles wird gut! http://www.mala-bosorka.de

07-06-2011, 23:46	#11
mijke Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Warnsveld Posts: 2,033	The univeristy of Holland is on this moment the only place where the dwarfism test can be done. Also Laboklin is sending DNA of dogs to holland for the dwarfism test. The Dwarfism test is testing if a dog has the gene mutation for Pituitary dwarfism. When you have test a dog and he is Free he will be always Free for this gene mutation! All the Csw dwarfs that were tested did have the same gene mutation that causes pituitary dwarfism. But as metionend before : there are sometimes other reasons why a dog is very small. And this has nothing to do with pituitary dwarfism! It is very strange that Laboklin did send such mails about the dwarfims test. Because there can always appear new gene mutations in a breed. And theoretical it is possible that there will appear in future an other gene mutation that causes an other form of a disease. But that is possible for all the genetic diseases we know now!! So it is a bit strange to mention this only for pituitary dwarfism! __________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!

09-01-2010, 09:42	#3
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	DNA tests normally are invented by a research-group, they nowadays get a patent (I hope the word is the same in English) and then use it themself or sell it to a commercial lab. DNA-research is expensive, at least in Germany the universities have a chronic lack of money. This is the reason why very often only one lab has the test. Other groups work on the same problems or improve the first published test so on long term there are more labs and cheaper tests. But DNA-testing is at its beginning it will take time. This brings us back to the idea of an international DNA-database. Mijke has found a cheap lab as far as I remember. Everybody can look in his own country for tests and labs and we can use it alltogether. Ina

09-01-2010, 10:22	#5
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	To do a test you have to know exactly what gene causes the disease, so first you start with finding out if a disease is inherited and which way is likely (recessiv, dominant, autosomal, etc) than you need to find out which mutation of a gene ore genes (more often and much more complicated) causes it. For that you need a group of dogs with this disease. Then you build up a test for marking this mutation, then you verify the test for the breed you worked with (look if it really shows all carriers and ill dogs), the you make the next step to find out of the same disease is caused by the same mutation in different breeds (what is very often not the case!) and verify it for different breeds. This takes very often years. You are carfull in publishing during this period because very often there are different groups working on one problem and who is succesfull first earns the money and the fame.