Tail

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by freewild

hi just one question

about traduce about
the standard :

TAIL Set on high, hanging straight down. When dog is excited, generally raised up in sickle shape.

This is sickle - so that´s the correct way of carrying tail when the dog is excited.

[Mirkawolf]

I´ve found image of "excited" dog on dog show, carrying its tail in the classical "sickle" shape. Here it is:



The male dog on the photo is Brave Odin z Verne smecky, photographed
on Club Dog show in Litomerice, Czech Republic.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

I´ve found image of "excited" dog on dog show, carrying its tail in the classical "sickle" shape. Here it is:



The male dog on the photo is Brave Odin z Verne smecky, photographed
on Club Dog show in Litomerice, Czech Republic.

I have idea. Maybe right tail in this shape have only working dogs And for Mirka it is very normal because in czech many people make exams with wolfdog. Brave is in database ZZO, ZOP. And in france no so furyos your dogs have no reason to be proud and no reason to have tails like this....

[furyos]

hi all .... y m not a juge( and yu too) BUT y say a litlle reserve when yu say tail necessary up like "nordik dog"(because some of yur pics show that sorry ) ....in fact yes it will be up (to show good caracther/exiting /etc ....no problem y m 100%agree(some pics from mirka are ok ) )but not like an husky or malamute(tex's pics ) ...... if yu don 't see difference beetween a dog who have a tail up like a dominant wolf but like a nordik:::::::: it' s a shame! .... personaly y think :if tail is to arround on her it 's a default ...good position it will be up when dog is on movment but not "turn arround "...do yu feel diffence or not ?.... don 't forget that our dogs had wolf origine and not nordik dog on their blood !!!!y NEVER SEE A WOLF LIKE AN HUSKY TAIL!!!!.... please don' t forget the difference .... and don 't say on this forum what it is YUR arrangments ....thank yu so mutch ...best regards ....furyos ...

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by furyos

hi all .... y m not a juge( and yu too) BUT y say a litlle reserve when yu say tail necessary up like "nordik dog"(because some of yur pics show that sorry ) ....in fact yes it will be up (to show good caracther/exiting /etc ....no problem y m 100%agree(some pics from mirka are ok ) )but not like an husky or malamute(tex's pics ) ...... if yu don 't see difference beetween a dog who have a tail up like a dominant wolf but like a nordik:::::::: it' s a shame!

Well, nordic, wich one?
Huskies and malamute have a completly different standard when we talk about tail.
Huskies tail must seems a fox tail, at movement must be ported up without touch the back, is preferenceable that it make a pretty curve in sickle format.
Husky tail must be quickly down at backline
Malamute's tail must be on the back at stay but cannot be curlied, must be on the line of the back.
Czechoslovakian wolfdog tail must have high insertion when the dog is axited the tail can be ported at sickle shape (as in the Mirka photo)

.... personaly y think :if tail is to arround on her it 's a default ...good position it will be up when dog is on movment but not "turn arround "...do yu feel diffence or not ?.... don 't forget that our dogs had wolf origine and not nordik dog on their blood !!!!y NEVER SEE A WOLF LIKE AN HUSKY TAIL!!!!.... please don' t forget the difference .... and don 't say on this forum what it is YUR arrangments ....thank yu so mutch ...best regards ....furyos ...

Because difficultly you will see a wolf or a high content wolfdog on the street or dogshows walking pretty like a sociabilized dog, with so good behaviour for walk showing the tail up relax at point to be in sickle full of movement.

Tail is one way for the dog and wolf express his felligs, one way for they talk, so, principally in wolves and wolfdogs the tail format can seems pretty different dog by dog at dogshows because it will depend directly of the behaviour, sociabilization and character of the dog.

One wolfdog.org you can find some photos of wolves, so, one of then show you a sickle tail, that will continue on sickle if this wolf have a pretty dominant character and have no concurrency, is only you look on the deep of the photo.


Yes, the tails in sickle only isn't up, and some tails in sickle you can find serching on the photos, but they will be difficultly up like a good behavioured wolfdog on dogshows.

[furyos]

hi nebulosa .... how are yu? very well y hope ?pics yu show me prove exactly what y want explain ...if dog is quiet :tail down.(like first wolf on pics)..but if dog is in action or in exiting :tail up like yur picture(second wolf on) ...but last picture from mirka and tex show exactly a bad position like a nordic dog ...sorry .... it 's too curl on the end and not straight enougth ...do yu see a pure german shepherd or a pure wolf like this???? sorry for me NEVER!!!!!!!!!!! for me this point will be important for the future selection /mariage and try to help to disapear that in future selection and mariage too ... genetic is not an easy science ...but we can try and work to help to disapear that ......HO SORRY !!! y forget ..yu are a friend from fabrice (french moderator) sorry if yu don' t like when y post reply about his dog ...but it s not he' is dog the problem(furcas have a lot of qualities) ..BUT it s the position about ALL TAILS like that ...yu feel and see the difference ? his pics posted is just an exemple to show the problem on image .... that 's all !!!..don t feel any agression or problem on mrs nebulosa ..it s my opinion and y think y can have one ...not ? best regards... furyos ...

[furyos]

hi....it s me again ...y look a lot of pictures and talk just now with some juges on phone(sorry y don 't give their name).... the problem for me (and them )it' s not tail up or down but the form of her when it s up ...curl on it 's a fault .... if it 's up and straight or little curl ok ...but if the curl is too mutch and go left or right side on the back ...this is a real big problem .... some nordik have this position and form of tail .... y hope yu understand this point of vue ...regards ..furyos

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by furyos

hi....it s me again ...y look a lot of pictures and talk just now with some juges on phone(sorry y don 't give their name).... the problem for me (and them )it' s not tail up or down but the form of her when it s up ...curl on it 's a fault .... if it 's up and straight or little curl ok ...but if the curl is too mutch and go left or right side on the back ...this is a real big problem .... some nordik have this position and form of tail .... y hope yu understand this point of vue ...regards ..furyos

Yes curl tail is a fault, but have someone see a CzW with curl tail?! if yes have photos?
an exemple of a silly curl tail.


more strong curly



I not imagine a CzW with a curly tail because the tail inserction and the bones it not reach for be curlied.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by furyos

hi nebulosa .... how are yu? very well y hope ?pics yu show me prove exactly what y want explain ...if dog is quiet :tail down.(like first wolf on pics)..but if dog is in action or in exiting :tail up like yur picture(second wolf on)

No, the tail of the second wolf isn't up, if be up will be on sickle like on the photos of Mirka.

..but last picture from mirka and tex show exactly a bad position like a nordic dog ...sorry .... it 's too curl on the end and not straight enougth ...do yu see a pure german shepherd or a pure wolf like this????sorry for me NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!

No, the picture of Mirka show a dog with very good character.
Yes you can find pure wolfs with the tail on sickle like you can find GSD working line with tail on sickle when exicted, principally on working trials, is only you have more convivence with these two animals and you will see.

for me this point will be important for the future selection /mariage and try to help to disapear that in future selection and mariage too ... genetic is not an easy science ...but we can try and work to help to disapear that

Even if I appear with a CzW with curlied tail, this won't be a serious problems when the breed need better selection in more important parts, every experienced judge that judge a specialized dog show will give winner for a dog with excelent structure and behaviour even if this dog have an not wiched tail port, that isn't the case of sickle tail.
For me the behaviour of the dog is pretty important for selection, tail in up sickle at dogshows or public locals when walk, tail down right at normal position when relax ( maybe with the set up), for a wolfdog is a proof of good character.

......HO SORRY !!! y forget ..yu are a friend from fabrice (french moderator) sorry if yu don' t like when y post reply about his dog ...but it s not he' is dog the problem(furcas have a lot of qualities) ..

and so?
I really see no problems on Furcas tail, and I tough nobody see a problem in this, because this problem you talk not exist on he or Odin.

BUT it s the position about ALL TAILS like that ...yu feel and see the difference ? his pics posted is just an exemple to show the problem on image .... that 's all !!!..don t feel any agression or problem on mrs nebulosa ..it s my opinion and y think y can have one ...not ? best regards... furyos ...

All tails like that means normally a dog full of self thrust, that is pretty searched in the breed of any dog principally when we talk about dogshow, because dogs like that have something that we call "star" inside, they show as who think that're the best ones, that is the star, some experienced handlers say that the "star" isn't possible to be selected, that like with humans, some dogs born with the star, some not, is more a lucky question, you can have a very good behavoured dog without this, I still believe it's a lucky question.

[furyos]

hi again nebulosa ...if yu think that it s YUR IDEA nebulosa if yu like yur idea no problem for me ......y respect it ...BUT NOT MINE ....for me yu are not open enougth in yur judgment and think just what yu want or feel on wolfdog ...like "anthropomorphism"....but selection it s not just lucky storie ... or little star on .... FOR ME : if y have one dog with this problem y NEVER try to have pupps with ..that 's all ... y don' t want see that in the future ...this is my idea ... respect it ...that s all ...best regards ...furyos

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by furyos

hi again nebulosa ...if yu think that it s YUR IDEA nebulosa if yu like yur idea no problem for me ......y respect it ...BUT NOT MINE ....for me yu are not open enougth in yur judgment and think just what yu want or feel on wolfdog ...like "anthropomorphism"....but selection it s not just lucky storie ... or little star on .... FOR ME : if y have one dog with this problem y NEVER try to have pupps with ..that 's all ... y don' t want see that in the future ...this is my idea ... respect it ...that s all ...best regards ...furyos

Isn't a question for ideas, we are talking about one dog breed with definited standard that MUST be respected.
Isn't something "I like dogs with tail on the belly because that I will select dogs like that because this is wolfish", if for you sickle tail is one problem, ok, but isn't for the standard that means that, simply like that, if you not like, ok, we respect it, but not try to put your taste as standard for the breed.
only that.

[furyos]

nebulosa !!! please !!!it s a joke or yu loose yur mind??? why not choose a chihuaha to illustrate this problem..... y think yu loose yur serious ..... when y speak about curl it's in the end on tail ...like a nordik ...if a lot of wolfdog have this "caracteristic "genetik ..yes we can imagine that a lot of mariage we can have yur last pictures ...god preserve us !!!!!!! this is for that it s necessary to STOP IT IMMEDIATLY ...mutation and genetik ...YU KNOW ? ;;;;in 10 or 20years if nobody note this ..YES IT WILL BE TOO LATE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!good idea in fact yur last pictures ..this extrem idea show a real problem in future !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thanks nebulosa ...thanks ....regards ...f

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by furyos

...but last picture from mirka and tex show exactly a bad position like a nordic dog ...sorry .... it 's too curl on the end and not straight enougth ...

for me this point will be important for the future selection /mariage and try to help to disapear that in future selection and mariage too ... genetic is not an easy science ...but we can try and work to help to disapear that ....

Did I get you right?

[lupis]

Originally Posted by furyos

if dog is quiet :tail down.(like first wolf on pics)..but if dog is in action or in exiting :tail up like yur picture(second wolf on) ...

But dog can be dominant and not only excited. Exciced tail is over back but not very high. Dominant wolves have tail very much up. How many woves do you see which were dominant to you?

Originally Posted by Angelika

If you have a look at the owned dogs it seems 4 or 5 French breeders are extremely under "Hungarian influence" at the moment, and some of them prefer dog shows in France, Switzerland and Holland more than in the countries of origin.
Angelika

Thank you for explanation. I see hungarian dogs imported to my country and now i know what Furyos writes. Hungarian dogs are very much shy and they never has tail up. Furyos can write tail up is not good because his dogs will never have such tails...

[Navarre]

I'm the owner of Beau Isabeau z Peronowki.
I think that she (and worser Furcas as seen in these photos) bring the tail too curly at the end and it is not very nice to see. In the bonitation Isabeau take a note (but not a code) about this.

This curly end has nothing to do with dominance or other things, is a way to bring the tail that at rest is straight.

A straight tail should be better, or should be preferable.

On the other side I don't think this is a so terrible fault that can put dogs with this fault out of breeding...you can repair it by compensation,as you can see in this photo :


On close up Last Navarre (straight tail), at right Isabeau (curly tail) and at left their puppy Anastasia (mid-curly tail)

[lupis]

I do not understand..... If Mirka from Czech writes:

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

This is sickle - so that´s the correct way of carrying tail when the dog is excited.

why you write?

Originally Posted by Navarre

This curly end has nothing to do with dominance or other things, is a way to bring the tail that at rest is straight.

A straight tail should be better, or should be preferable.

If Mirka is writing right then on your photo Last Navarre has wrong tail (too much stright) and good shape have Isabeau and Anastasia (i preffer Anastasia but it is my privat view). Because Last Navarre have "sword" and not "sickle". So why on the bonitation wrong is the tail which is in the standard? Maybe Mirka can explain it to me better because i am confused now...

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by lupis

If Mirka is writing right then on your photo Last Navarre has wrong tail (too much stright) and good shape have Isabeau and Anastasia (i preffer Anastasia but it is my privat view). Because Last Navarre have "sword" and not "sickle". So why on the bonitation wrong is the tail which is in the standard? Maybe Mirka can explain it to me better because i am confused now...

Non ti fissare su una foto, per altro in movimento, che ha poco senso. E non ti fissare su un disegno che ne ha ancora meno!
Isa ha un ricciolino finale che non è bello a vedersi e lo ha solo quando è eccitata mentre a riposo la coda è diritta...si ved bene nelle foto di Furcas, che ha lo stesso difetto anche più accentuato.
La coda di Navarre invece fa un arco a parabola, senza il ricciolo finale ed è la coda corretta.

[Nebulosa]

Still no curly tail on photos, please not make confusion.
All dogs have long basis bones on the tail and pretty same pelvis format, that impeach the tail to be curly.
For the tail be curlied the bones in the basis of the tail cannot be long, as the isquian must be high, this afect directly on the movimentation of the dog so, a curlied tailed dog will show different or atipical movimentation, probably wrong angles.
We have two different words ( that I not know in english) for these two tipes of curly tail, one is like Basenji, really curly.



Other is like Akitas and Alaskans Malamuts.




In the set of the tail we can find normally the J format even in wolves as exprection, this can happen even when the tail was broken when the dog was really little.



This format can appear because accident ( silly broken at point), because tail format, because tail size as because dog emotions, it will made the dog almost touch the back when carring the tail in dominant upper position.

Wolves tail are full of moviment and life, so, you can find wolves carring the tail in sicke shape and sabre as with the point in J.




But you will never find a wolf with curly tail, as I never find a wolfdog with curly tail.

Have 2 defects on the tails, one is called Scorpion Tail, isn't so serious but isn't wished, the last tail part turn up at back of the dog, like a scorpion tail, if not deceif-me happen because musculature problems ( to happen on wolves), and we can have death tail, serious problems that means or the bad formation of the neural tail side or by accidents, dogs wich had broken the tail in the basis.