Health results (also DM!!) in the Wolfdog.org database

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

Basing on this we can not publish ANY results because even the "official" results are not 100% sure. There is a problem with the OFFICIAL laboratory Vetlabor which made mistakes while testing the probes. But EVEN the Laboklin makes mistakes and this week we received new results of a dog whose owners received the results N/N but the dogs is N/DM (he was tested for MH instead of DM).

If we can not be sure that even the OFFICIAL results are 100% clear of "human hand" why we should post ANY results?
Remember that the same apply to HD results - they are ALWAYS subjective. Sure they meassure the angles but still there is sometimes even 20% differences between vets in one country.


You will NEVER be sure if a person will not make a "mistake". There will be always a small percetage of possible errors.

But even OFFA makes the same as we do - if the parents are tested by OFFA the puppies are treated the same way like we do. If there is a parentage test the puppies will even receive OFFICIAL certificartes WITHOUT testing. And they really know that they are doing...

About mutations: they exist but the possibility that they appear is so small that they are pased over. Only here of forum people try to explain every abnormality with "mutattion".

Nothing are 100% clear, but if we publish only official test, one for each dog, step by step, any errors will be revealed soon. If we start to deduce the transmission of genes, as Mendelian, we can make mistake to people of Wolfodog. Off course ufficial aboratory cane make error, but laboratory must answer for their mistakes, in law contest. This is not my think, is International Rules of Accreditation about zootechnical lab.
You can ask here: is official italian istitution for laboratory rules on Breeding, human healt, food and more...and they take international rules...
we have those information from this institut..

[mijke]

Originally Posted by koboldine

….. Furthermore, it will include - and exclude - potential breeding "material" only just because of assumption.
And it will not force people to pay for an official test, on the contrary, why take (and pay for) a test if my dog is already marked as N/? - when it's enough to breed with...

Originally Posted by woland77

Nothing are 100% clear, but if we publish only official test, one for each dog, step by step, any errors will be revealed soon. If we start to deduce the transmission of genes, as Mendelian, we can make mistake to people of Wolfodog. Off course ufficial aboratory cane make error, but laboratory must answer for their mistakes, in law contest...

I agree with you

I am not happy at all with publishing unofficial test results for several reasons that others did already mention.
And I also am not happy with labs that accept swabs of owners (without checking chip by an independent vet) for DNA tests…. (Owners can make mistakes and breeders have more chances to cheat)

And based on this a lot more mistakes can be made (wrong conclusions) with publishing unofficial results

[buidelwolf]

Strange,

Unofficial testresults are published but I uploaded the official DM (N/N) testresult of my dog several times past weeks in PDF (also sent it by e-mail) and still no mention of it. Not really motivating.

[jmvdwiel]

the result is visable at you dogs profile , so thank you admin should be your phrase

[buidelwolf]

OK, top. Sorry for my impatience! thanks

[admin]

Originally Posted by mijke

I am not happy at all with publishing unofficial test results for several reasons that others did already mention.
And I also am not happy with labs that accept swabs of owners (without checking chip by an independent vet) for DNA tests…. (Owners can make mistakes and breeders have more chances to cheat)

And based on this a lot more mistakes can be made (wrong conclusions) with publishing unofficial results

There are several points:

First - the simple Mendel law allow to "verify" the results. If the breeder will cheat it wil be very fast discovered. And believe me: IF such case will happend I will publish officially the name of the cheater on every version of forum.

Second - cheating can be done in EVERY case. Remember that some breeders are vets and some have friends who are vets. There are always people who will be prepared to cheat. Why it is still allowed by GSD to cheat if all the dogs must be DNA checked? But as I wrote before - it will be discovered sooner or later.


The official results were not published "just like this" - for the whole time it was included in the database but not published. And there was not even one case where the published results were wrong - all the unofficial results were confirmed. The only mistakes which we fixed were... exactly the results made by the "official" laboratories.

And last but not least: you know that some breeders who have the biggest problems will never test/publish the results of their dogs. And the human mind is made this way that everything what is not tested is kept for "clear". Publishing the results basing on the results of the offsprings can significant imprive the health of the breed even if some breeders will not "cooperate".

And for the end: exactly thanks to the laboratories who do not give official certificates it was possible to make the selection who will help us to reduce the number of dogs "at risk". A large number of dogs was tested and the results are as good as bu the official laboratories. Tested dogs mean that it is possible for breeders to make the selection. If we would base ONLY on the official results made by the official laboratories we could already NOW stop ANY selelction - the illness will spread because before almost nobody was interested to test their dogs.
The best example is the test for dwarfism - the price reduced the amount of tested dogs to minimum. No good selection can be made and because of it no selection is done. The possibility to test the dogs didn't changed ANYTHING. And it will be so till one of the universities will develop another project who will test dogs for free (as it is done with DM) or for a very small amount of money....
Sad but true.

So the disscussion about publishing of the unofficial results and accepting only the one made by "official" laboratories is the disscussion between the if we will make the sepection OR NOT....

[koboldine]

Originally Posted by Admin

And last but not least: you know that some breeders who have the biggest problems will never test/publish the results of their dogs. And the human mind is made this way that everything what is not tested is kept for "clear". Publishing the results basing on the results of the offsprings can significant imprive the health of the breed even if some breeders will not "cooperate".

THIS is an argument - using this to force everyone to test - do you think it´ll work?

Originally Posted by Admin

And it will be so till one of the universities will develop another project who will test dogs for free (as it is done with DM) or for a very small amount of money....

Please tell me which project and university does the DM Test for free - and how can one send in the samples?
Because I´d like to test, but it is quite expensive...and my dog ist not supposed to have any offsprings, therefore I waited...

[admin]

Originally Posted by koboldine

Please tell me which project and university does the DM Test for free - and how can one send in the samples?
Because I´d like to test, but it is quite expensive...and my dog ist not supposed to have any offsprings, therefore I waited...

There is a project running on the university in Prague who is checking the DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. All you have to do is to send the blood of your dog (EDTA) OR the swabs with DNA material taken from the inner cheek. Send it together with the information of your dog to:

Daniela Čílová
Katedra genetiky a šlechtění
Česká zemědělská univerzita v Praze
Kamýcká 129
165 21 Praha 6 - Suchdol
Czech Republic

and wait for the results.

Especially thanks to this project there is a HUGE improvement if it comes to the DM testing and the possiblity to make DM selection by our breed.

[koboldine]

Originally Posted by Admin

There is a project running on the university in Prague who is checking the DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. All you have to do is to send the blood of your dog (EDTA) OR the swabs with DNA material taken from the inner cheek. Send it together with the information of your dog to:

Daniela Čílová
Katedra genetiky a šlechtění
Česká zemědělská univerzita v Praze
Kamýcká 129
165 21 Praha 6 - Suchdol
Czech Republic

and wait for the results.

Especially thanks to this project there is a HUGE improvement if it comes to the DM testing and the possiblity to make DM selection by our breed.

Is it ok to send an english documentation of the dog - or does it have to be in czech?

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Admin

There is a project running on the university in Prague who is checking the DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. All you have to do is to send the blood of your dog (EDTA) OR the swabs with DNA material taken from the inner cheek. Send it together with the information of your dog to:

Daniela Čílová
Katedra genetiky a šlechtění
Česká zemědělská univerzita v Praze
Kamýcká 129
165 21 Praha 6 - Suchdol
Czech Republic

and wait for the results.

Especially thanks to this project there is a HUGE improvement if it comes to the DM testing and the possiblity to make DM selection by our breed.

How & who should take the sample? Can I ask my vet to take a sample in Hořovice for example & will the results be considered official?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Baz

How & who should take the sample? Can I ask my vet to take a sample in Hořovice for example & will the results be considered official?

I took my dog to the vet, asked her to check her chip, take the material with a swab, dry it, put into the envelope prepared earlier with my dog's name & chip no & my e-mail, seal it with a stamp and send to Daniela.

Results of the dog's family immediately verify his/her result, so no cheating is possible just like errors are spotted very soon (see the case of Eury). I had similar doubts when the testing started, but the more dogs are tested, the more the results are reliable.

There are people who belive in miracles and many strange things keep happening in their kennels, which BTW they never bother to explain but the rest of the results fit the "family pattern" perfectly.

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by Baz

How & who should take the sample? Can I ask my vet to take a sample in Hořovice for example & will the results be considered official?

Pokud chcete aby byly vaše výsledky považovány za oficiální, musíte poslat vzorek do některé z akreditovaných laboratoří a samozřejmě ho zaplatit. Pokud vám stačí výsledek neoficiální, přijeďte se psem na jeden z podzimních svodů a bonitací v ČR a nechte ho v rámci výzkumu DM odebrat a otestovat zdarma - s neoficiálním výsledkem.

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

Nothing are 100% clear, but if we publish only official test, one for each dog, step by step, any errors will be revealed soon. If we start to deduce the transmission of genes, as Mendelian, we can make mistake to people of Wolfodog. Off course ufficial aboratory cane make error, but laboratory must answer for their mistakes, in law contest.

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

[koboldine]

Originally Posted by Admin

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

Admin, is this about trust?

Sorry - I just ask because obviously there are people who cheat - or worse - within this breed, but are those more important than the ones who keep everything straight and stick to the rules?

No offence

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

If i buy a puppy that i think is n/n by result deduced by result of parents, information published by Wolfdog and after i test my dog and is n/dm, the Lab the laboratory has no responsibility towards me (but Lab have responsibility toward to owner of the parents of puppy).
Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut). Of course you can have different think about rules, but i write one time more than here is not problema about my idea and your idea...is a problem of existing regulations!

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

If i buy a puppy that i think is n/n by result deduced by result of parents, information published by Wolfdog and after i test my dog and is n/dm, the Lab the laboratory has no responsibility towards me (but Lab have responsibility toward to owner of the parents of puppy).
Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut). Of course you can have different think about rules, but i write one time more than here is not problema about my idea and your idea...is a problem of existing regulations!

You are totally wrong - nobody tells you that the results are OFFICIAL. Nobody cheats you.

YOU as breeder has the whole responsibility. Nobody FORCE you to use a dog with unofficial results. If you do not belive in them JUST DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION to them. If you want to use dogs ONLY with the ofiicial results - just DO IT. It is only up to you. Some people find the results usefull, some not. We have democration.
It is CLEARLY written that there results are not official and it will be explained that they base on the results of the parents/offsprings.

You write about the responsibility of official laboratories. WHICH ONE? There is the possiblity that due to their mistake there will be some DM/DM puppies born. What will do the laboratory??? Replace the puppies? What will they do in the case when the dogs will get ill? CURE them? There is not cure for DM... Pay you the money? Sorry - money is not important if you have a ill dog which you can not help.

You criticize the unoficial results but in MANY cases they can force puppy owners to test their dogs. They can be informed about the danger EVEN if the dog already died or the breeder is hiding the results.
The unofficial results showed for example that one of the most popular Italian stud dogs - Charon - was DM carrier. For years there were dogs who were put down because of "misterous" reasons. Now the offspring owners know how to prevent it - what they must take into consideration.
The same with Crying Wolf dogs - most of them are DM/DM or DM carriers. Till now only two of them are N/N. The breeder seems not to be interested in any tests. But the puppy owners can do something with it and they can see the problem and prevent that there will be no more dogs born who will suffer like Forrest.

Do you think it is wrong what we do? Should we really help to hide the DM-dogs?

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

You are totally wrong - nobody tells you that the results are OFFICIAL. Nobody cheats you.

YOU as breeder has the whole responsibility. Nobody FORCE you to use a dog with unofficial results. If you do not belive in them JUST DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION to them. If you want to use dogs ONLY with the ofiicial results - just DO IT. It is only up to you. Some people find the results usefull, some not. We have democration.
It is CLEARLY written that there results are not official and it will be explained that they base on the results of the parents/offsprings.

You write about the responsibility of official laboratories. WHICH ONE? There is the possiblity that due to their mistake there will be some DM/DM puppies born. What will do the laboratory??? Replace the puppies? What will they do in the case when the dogs will get ill? CURE them? There is not cure for DM... Pay you the money? Sorry - money is not important if you have a ill dog which you can not help.

You criticize the unoficial results but in MANY cases they can force puppy owners to test their dogs. They can be informed about the danger EVEN if the dog already died or the breeder is hiding the results.
The unofficial results showed for example that one of the most popular Italian stud dogs - Charon - was DM carrier. For years there were dogs who were put down because of "misterous" reasons. Now the offspring owners know how to prevent it - what they must take into consideration.
The same with Crying Wolf dogs - most of them are DM/DM or DM carriers. Till now only two of them are N/N. The breeder seems not to be interested in any tests. But the puppy owners can do something with it and they can see the problem and prevent that there will be no more dogs born who will suffer like Forrest.

Do you think it is wrong what we do? Should we really help to hide the DM-dogs?

Yes is wrong to publish data without any title to make this. whether they are related to potential DM or n. There are many dog's with unoficial x rays for dysplasia (good and sick result), we start to publish all?
All think about disease and breeder don't have any sense here. We spoke aboute normal rules to publish genetic result (good and bad, i ask to remove n/n result to my dogs, you remember it?)...

[CDaniela]

Yes, buccal swab is ideal for genetic analysis, it is true. I also prefer working with blood.
I'll write an example that proves that everything is relative ...
Eury z Peronowki was tested in Laboklin. His results-negative. Valkýra z Molu Es tested in Prague (negative) and also in Laboklin - result - negative. Litter B Arqeva (Valkýra x Eury) was tested in Prague - the result - half puppies carrier. Why?
I asked the owner of Eury to repeat the test - the result - the carrier (Laboklin)
Both tests made ​​from the same blood sample.

[hekate]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Yes, buccal swab is ideal for genetic analysis, it is true. I also prefer working with blood.
I'll write an example that proves that everything is relative ...
Eury z Peronowki was tested in Laboklin. His results-negative. Valkýra z Molu Es tested in Prague (negative) and also in Laboklin - result - negative. Litter B Arqeva (Valkýra x Eury) was tested in Prague - the result - half puppies carrier. Why?
I asked the owner of Eury to repeat the test - the result - the carrier (Laboklin)
Both tests made ​​from the same blood sample.

You mean that the results of Laboklin are not trust??

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

Yes is wrong to publish data without any title to make this. whether they are related to potential DM or n. There are many dog's with unoficial x rays for dysplasia (good and sick result), we start to publish all?.

Don't you see the difference? Between HD and DM?
The x-ray evaluation is subjective. It depends on the vet who makes it.
Additionally dysplasia is polygenetic (+ environmental influence) - nobody can say which genes the dog have - nobody test it.
So the HD-results of the children say NOTHING (or better said "almost nothing) about the HD-results of the children.

DM and dwarf is something else - a DM/DM dog has its genes not from the air, not thank to the butterlies or bees but "thanks" to the mother and father. Both are DM carriers. The same with N/N results.

Sure people make mistakes - but people work also at the official laboratories. Sure the breeders cheat - but we have presumption of innocence: the majority of the breeders breed according to the rules. The rest - especially the DM test - the "unofficial" can show some cheatings.

Originally Posted by woland77

We spoke aboute normal rules to publish genetic result (good and bad, i ask to remove n/n result to my dogs, you remember it?)...

Yes - and again: if there is no mistake and there is no cheating than the "unofficial" results will be exactly the same like the OFFICIAL results.
IF there will be human mistake then also the official results will not match.

Originally Posted by woland77

No is not the end. Off course lab don't have responsibility about right identification,i never said this..damage is limited if not otherwise regulated by law..This does not mean it does not respond. You must to seek for rules for accreditation (i spoke aboute this, i think is clear)..research institute don't have accrditation to give official result, and research institute don't respond for error (about test, ID is another think)...why? and you want without any accreditation system recognized deduce part or all genotipe of dogs.

You are wrong about the research institutes - the dwarf test are done by a research institute and you GET the certificates.

Sorry but is it not about ACCREDITATION. Yes - the laboratories must have accreditation and must be "responsible" for it. But the are not responsible for HUMAN MISTAKES. If human make mistake you will get "false" results by the puppies. What will do the laboratory? It will NOT loose the accreditation - maybe they will fire the worker who made the mistake. What you and the puppies will reach? NOTHING.

But it is as Daniela and Rona wrote: it is easy to verify the results - it is easy to find out the cheatings and also the mistakes done (also by the official laboratories).

But again - the results basing on the parents and offsprings are not marked "Done by the laboratory Wolfdog" but as "unofficial". You can accept it...or not. Free will. For the breeding it has ONLY good influence.