Go Back   Wolfdog.org forum > English > Health and nutrition

Health and nutrition How to feed a Wolfdog, information about dog food, how to vaccinate and what to do if the dog gets ill....

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 13-09-2008, 23:44   #1
mijke
Senior Member
 
mijke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Warnsveld
Posts: 2,033
Default Dwarfism test for CSW?

As some of you may already know the university in Utrecht (NL) has developed a test, which can determine the mutation of the gene that is responsible for dwarfism (achondroplasia).

Dwarfism is a nasty disorder which you don’t wish upon any breeder or dog. A dwarf has a badly developed hypophysis, which means that certain hormones (such as growth hormones) are not produced. Due to the shortage of the production of the thyroid stimulating hormone, they have a slow functioning thyroid. Besides the fact that these dogs stay small, they are also haunted by various nasty side effects (e.g. baldness, itching, inflammations, malfunctioning of the liver and kidneys, slow behaviour) when they are not treated with medicines on a daily basis.

One case of dwarfism is known to me within the CSW breed. Because this kind of gene mutations never come incidentally, there must have been born more dwarf CSW. (If one dwarf dog is born, then it means that approximately 18% of the dogs is carrying the gene.)
But not always dwarfs are recognised in a litter… Dead born pups and pups behind in growth are often not recognised as dwarfs. Moreover, 90% of the living born dwarfs dies in the first week.

With the Saarloos wolfdog it has already become clear that this disorder appears much more than ever thought.
Based on the genetic basis of CSW, it is feared that it could be the same in the CSW breed.
But with the development of the dwarfism test it has become possible to prevent further dwarfs being born within certain breeds!

I’ve heard from the researchers at the Utrecht university (who are working on this subject since years), that the mutation that leads to dwarfism in the Saarlooswolfdog breed is identical to the one of the German shepherd.
So the gen test is exactly the same for the German shepherd as well as the Saarlooswolfdog.

Based on the fact that the CSW also has the German shepherd as an ancestor, it is certainly feasible that the genetic background of dwarfism in the CSW breed is exactly the same as with the Saarloos wolfdog.
In this case the same dwarfism test can be used for the CSW breed as well!

But….
To see if the genetic mutation of the CSW has the same background, it must be determined that at least one dog is carrying this mutation.

Therefore
Blood is needed from at least one dog which is suffering from dwarfism, or which is certainly carrying the mutated gene by being the parent of a dwarf dog.

Thus:
I am doing an urgent appeal for the health of the breed to all readers of this forum to contact me by personal message or by e-mail ([email protected]) in case you know somebody who has a CSW with dwarfism or a parent of one.


I do not care about the names of the dogs!
My only hope is to find owners who are willing to cooperate, to determine if the new dwarfism test is also valid for CSW
I can give those owners more information after they have contact me.

With this request I do not intent to start up suggestions or speculations about the possibility that a breeder may has had a dwarf in his or her litter!
The only request I have is to connect me with owners of a dwarf TW or owners who have a parent of dwarf CSW.


If we find owners who are willing to cooperate and the results of the tests are known, I will of course inform everyone here at the forum.

In advance I would like to thank you for your cooperation!

Best regards,
Mijke
__________________
Vriendelijke groeten,
Mijke

PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!
http://www.ursidaestee.wolfdog.org/voor%20wolfdog/handtekening/New%20format%20banner%20Wg.jpg
mijke jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2008, 00:07   #2
GalomyOak
Howling Member
 
GalomyOak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 436
Send a message via Skype™ to GalomyOak
Default

Very nice!!! I hope you find someone that will help you!
Marcy
GalomyOak jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2008, 14:48   #3
loco
Non active.
 
loco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Outside, walking the dog.
Posts: 2,873
Default

I have found this link.
http://www.accdata.co.uk/dwarfism/index.html
and then to the field the history of dwarfism.

Only CONSEAL and DENIAL by the breeders off the GS .
Hope the CSW world is very diffrent , and the test is very soon availble .

Groette Martine.
__________________
Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it.......
Then just piss on it and walk away .
loco jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2008, 20:30   #4
Hanka
Senior Member
 
Hanka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Kadaň
Posts: 1,622
Send a message via ICQ to Hanka Send a message via Skype™ to Hanka
Default

Hello Mijke,
I have seen this picture on saarlos page, it is very interest for me. Please can you write me (maybe privat message) in what litter you have seen this csw? Maybe we can look for in "blood" of this puppy. Have you got any fotos? I have seen a some similar case, but on foto of saarlos it looks very diferent.....more worse....thanks Hanka
Hanka jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2008, 20:32   #5
Hanka
Senior Member
 
Hanka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Kadaň
Posts: 1,622
Send a message via ICQ to Hanka Send a message via Skype™ to Hanka
Default

And second question: is it possible- this puppy was from some "pure breed" breeding of csw in west Evropa? Everybody know, there is possible everything. Can there be any saarlos in population of csw?
Hanka jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2008, 21:09   #6
loco
Non active.
 
loco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Outside, walking the dog.
Posts: 2,873
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by loco View Post
I have found this link.
http://www.accdata.co.uk/dwarfism/index.html
and then to the field the history of dwarfism.

Only CONSEAL and DENIAL by the breeders off the GS .

Groette Martine.
Forgot to say, also pointing finger at other breeders .
Does not help to cure this disease, only serieus help for the test does that.

So in the furture, when you think there is any suspicious in the line's you want to use you can ask for test results .
And that is the only way to take this disease out of the whole breed of CSW.
Because the history off CSW is the same, in the rest off Europe as it is for CZ .
History is something that can not be changed .

Groette Martine.
__________________
Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it.......
Then just piss on it and walk away .
loco jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2008, 21:22   #7
Hanka
Senior Member
 
Hanka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Kadaň
Posts: 1,622
Send a message via ICQ to Hanka Send a message via Skype™ to Hanka
Default

Yes, but first we can try to find if some family or line has this problem. My personal meaning in this moment is: it can be from some saarlos what was used in csw breeding. But we can´t know it 100%...We can only think about it.
Hanka jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2008, 21:45   #8
loco
Non active.
 
loco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Outside, walking the dog.
Posts: 2,873
Default

And we can also think .
That it come's from the GS in the beginning ???

As the link says it is from the earlier 50s that it came out in the open, and when is the beginning of the breed CSW started??

Does it matter ? ??

It is here and it does not dissapear by pointing a finger to somebody or specific bloodline's.
Or do you think the Breed of CSW is big enough to put out specific bloodline's of breeding??

By using the test with goodtestresult you still can use all bloodline's .

Groette Martine.
__________________
Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it.......
Then just piss on it and walk away .
loco jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2008, 22:02   #9
Hanka
Senior Member
 
Hanka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Kadaň
Posts: 1,622
Send a message via ICQ to Hanka Send a message via Skype™ to Hanka
Default

Yes, it can be from GS, of course. But I think no, because here we don´t know some case of it. And in czech are only pure breed csw. If was some case by saarols breed, My personal meaning is- it can be in some "not so much clean" breeding.
So I think, will not be situation when we will must give some line out from breeding....
But-I told, in this moment we can only think about it. We (me) don´t know where Mijke have seen it.
Hanka jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-09-2008, 22:52   #10
loco
Non active.
 
loco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Outside, walking the dog.
Posts: 2,873
Default

And if Mijke was not honest about it you would not know anything about it .

So who says there is only honest breeders off CSW ???
In whole EUROPA ??
Who says because you did not hear about in CZ that it is not there also ???

It also comes forward in very diffrent breeds.
Not only Saarloos and GS.
Also in mouse.
It even comes forward in to people.
So why not the CSW ??
Because we never heard about it ??

It can be only be a dead born pup who has it.
Or a pup who lived not long enough to see the diffrent with the other pups (2 or 3 weeks).
It is exceptional that the pup lived long enough to see that it is a dwarf.

But if everybody stays in denial there never comes a test.

Groette Martine.
__________________
Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it.......
Then just piss on it and walk away .
loco jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2008, 03:06   #11
Nebulosa
Moderator
 
Nebulosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Rio Grande do Sul
Posts: 1,332
Send a message via ICQ to Nebulosa Send a message via MSN to Nebulosa Send a message via Skype™ to Nebulosa
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by loco View Post
And we can also think .
That it come's from the GS in the beginning ???

As the link says it is from the earlier 50s that it came out in the open, and when is the beginning of the breed CSW started??

Does it matter ? ??
Sure! I dont read completly the link but I pass the eye in a part wich say the first knowed case was in 53, of course we all know these problems already exist early the first case be related, but nobody cares for the puppies wich the mother kill, wich mystriously die and so on, most part of puppies with this problem die in the first week and in all breeds we can consider common a puppie die in this age, that's why nobody cares at first time, since a puppie with the problem survive suficiently to show the problem to the owner or breeder.
Work with breeders is pretty difficult, probably more cases of hipophysary dwarfism happen in other GSD breeding but the breeder told nobody about it for avoid gossips and rumors about his breeding.
CzW have a high amount of GSD, why the breed would be immune to the GSD problems? of course without the same intensity because the different morphologic selection made in CzW, but every genetic problem wich appear in GSD must call our attention too, principally when it envolve working lines.
Hearth diseases, Cryptorchidism, Hip Displasy, Elbows Displasy, Demodex cannis, malignal brian cancer in young, in a breed with such poor genetic pool like CzW, any cases of illness must call our attention even if it was only one, the breed not need to be mixed for show problems that before not appear, with such genetic pool, is only a time question for more and more hiden illness appear in pure breed dogs, that not mean that mixes will be more healty than pure dogs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by loco View Post
Because we never heard about it ??

It can be only be a dead born pup who has it.
Or a pup who lived not long enough to see the diffrent with the other pups (2 or 3 weeks).
It is exceptional that the pup lived long enough to see that it is a dwarf.

But if everybody stays in denial there never comes a test.
You can addict that the CzW breed is a relactivelly new breed, so most part of the problems wich the breed have are still unknow, that turn things more difficult.
__________________
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/signaturepics/sigpic1100_1.gif
Nebulosa jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2008, 06:36   #12
Hanka
Senior Member
 
Hanka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Kadaň
Posts: 1,622
Send a message via ICQ to Hanka Send a message via Skype™ to Hanka
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by loco
And if Mijke was not honest about it you would not know anything about it .
Yes, she can´t informate me about it of course. But she knows, I am in Czech breed comission and we have info about Czech population (health, problems, etc...) And when she wants some health info from me, I answer her usually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loco
So who says there is only honest breeders off CSW ???
Nobody. And I think nobody does it. Why you ask about it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by loco
In whole EUROPA ??
Who says because you did not hear about in CZ that it is not there also ???
Nobody. But nobody tell it. Or yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loco
It also comes forward in very diffrent breeds.
Yes. For example from malamut- in saarlos population. Why not....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loco
Not only Saarloos and GS.
Yes, but nobody told it here. Or yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loco
Also in mouse.
))) No coment

Quote:
Originally Posted by loco
It even comes forward in to people.
So why not the CSW ??
Exist some small %. but nobody told, it is not from CSW. I only wrote I THINK and we had not it in population in last years....

Quote:
Originally Posted by loco
Because we never heard about it ??
You don´t know situation in breeding in Czech. Here is all under health control. Of course, every breeder can keep some problems "at home". And nothing is 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by loco
It can be only be a dead born pup who has it.
Yes, but we know how much pups was born in every litter and we ask why puppy was dead. Everybody can lie, but not the same breeder every litter, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loco
Or a pup who lived not long enough to see the diffrent with the other pups (2 or 3 weeks).
It is exceptional that the pup lived long enough to see that it is a dwarf.

But if everybody stays in denial there never comes a test.
And it is all what I will write with you in this problem. I think, you are new in wolfdog world. If Mijke will want inform me, she will do it. Or no....
Hanka jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2008, 11:14   #13
nanouk
Junior Member
 
nanouk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 208
Default

did you guys know that the NVSWH, the original breedclub in the netherlands does the same as some do here?
point fingers to TWD, say possible dwarfism only appaers in the SWDlines outside their protected breeding program and derives not from GS but from TWD

Malamute in saarloos population? nice rumours.. why mention this in this diskussion, when it is , thanks to gen research, more than obvious that the gen responsible for dwarfism in SWD is the similair one as in GS, not as in malamute

nanouk jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2008, 12:01   #14
Hanka
Senior Member
 
Hanka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Kadaň
Posts: 1,622
Send a message via ICQ to Hanka Send a message via Skype™ to Hanka
Default

Sorry. My writting about malamute was only "case", not really meaning. But as I know, was much discussions about "brown colour" in thear population. Some people told, there was some siberian husky. Mrs.Saarlos told NO. But from what is brown colour in this breed?
It must be some similar breed.
Hanka jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2008, 12:25   #15
nanouk
Junior Member
 
nanouk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
Sorry. My writting about malamute was only "case", not really meaning. But as I know, was much discussions about "brown colour" in thear population. Some people told, there was some siberian husky. Mrs.Saarlos told NO. But from what is brown colour in this breed?
It must be some similar breed.

off topic, but did you know that in some rare cases, the brown, with liver nose, also is present in gs



Perhaps not the best of pictures, but a very plausible explanation for brown in SWD.
nanouk jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2008, 13:40   #16
loco
Non active.
 
loco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Outside, walking the dog.
Posts: 2,873
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
You can addict that the CzW breed is a relactivelly new breed, so most part of the problems wich the breed have are still unknow, that turn things more difficult.
Yes but there is now dwarfism and that can be solved by the test, and not by pointing finger at each other or a other breed .
Groette Martine.
__________________
Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it.......
Then just piss on it and walk away .
loco jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2008, 14:06   #17
Angelika
Member
 
Angelika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 847
Default

Maybe I´m wrong but for one (?) SWD dwarf and maybe one CSW dwarf it´s a great effort to test the whole breeds

Dysplasia or epilepsy appear much more important to me.
Angelika jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2008, 16:39   #18
Nebulosa
Moderator
 
Nebulosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Rio Grande do Sul
Posts: 1,332
Send a message via ICQ to Nebulosa Send a message via MSN to Nebulosa Send a message via Skype™ to Nebulosa
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelika View Post
Maybe I´m wrong but for one (?) SWD dwarf and maybe one CSW dwarf it´s a great effort to test the whole breeds

Dysplasia or epilepsy appear much more important to me.
Of course yes, one CzW dwarf survive that means probably much others die before 1 week with this problem.
Dysplasia is pretty difficult to make control using genetic tests because none know really all gens wich cause the problem, it's still in studie and be poligenic turn things more difficult, if I not deceif me with Epilepsy isn't different problem.
__________________
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/signaturepics/sigpic1100_1.gif
Nebulosa jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2008, 18:13   #19
nanouk
Junior Member
 
nanouk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelika View Post
Maybe I´m wrong but for one (?) SWD dwarf and maybe one CSW dwarf it´s a great effort to test the whole breeds

Dysplasia or epilepsy appear much more important to me.
I understand where you are coming from, but there is no need to test a whole population, if in fact there is proof of dwarfism under TWD and the test can be made available, a dna test for dogs used for breeding is not to expensive, you can deal with a problem as long as it still is incidental, and with smart breeding can make sure that less and less dogs need to be tested in future (mating two free animals gives you free animals so no need to test their offspring )

In SWD it is sadly more than just one dwarf, but like mentioned in the test, stillborn puppies , fading puppies, that might all have been dwarfs as well.. I#d rather know than take the guess..

To give some figures, last figures i got after the test was available:
36 SWD tested, 28 free, 7 carriers and 1 dwarf
(offcourse a couple more dwarfs are known from the past, these are just the facts with DNA testing done)

as of hd:
Quote:
Neues Testverfahren für HD-Risiko entwickelt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(huj) Einem Team um Professor Ottmar Distl am Institut für Tierzucht und Vererbungsforschung der Stiftung Tierärztliche Hochschule Hannover ist es mit Unterstützung des Vereins für Deutsche Schäferhunde gelungen, ein molekularbiologisches Testverfahren zu entwickeln, das es ermöglicht, das HD-Risiko mit hoher Wahrscheinlichkeit vorherzusagen. Wie VDH-Vorstandsmitglied Josef Pohling mitteilt, könne jetzt mit Hilfe des Testverfahrens die Schätzung der genomischen Zuchtwerte erfolgen. Im Unterschied zur in der Hundezucht verbreiteten Zuchtwertschätzung auf Basis der HD-Röntgenergebnisse spielen bei der genomischen Zuchtwertschätzung die Informationen von verwandten Tieren keine Rolle. Auf Grundlage der Auswertung einer Blutprobe beim Welpen kann das Risiko des Auftretens von HD im weiteren Verlauf seines Lebens vorausgesagt werden und bei den vorhandenen Zuchttieren die Paarungsplanung derart verbessert werden, dass die Zahl der HD-betroffenen Tiere weiter zurückgedrängt werden kann.
Der Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde stellte für das Forschungsprojekt die DNA-Proben und die HD-Auswertungen von über 1000 Hunden zur Verfügung. Am Anfang standen elf väterliche Halbgeschwisterfamilien mit insgesamt 459 Hunden. Die hieraus gewonnen Ergebnisse wurden in der Folge an 770 möglichst wenig miteinander verwandten Schäferhunden überprüft.
Professor Distl geht davon aus, dass die Erkenntnisse beim Deutschen Schäferhund mit einem deutlich geringeren Aufwand auf ihre Übertragbarkeit und Gültigkeit für andere Rassen überprüft werden können. Voraussetzung, so Pohling, sei aber, dass die erforderlichen Daten (Zuchtbuch in elektronischer Form, HD-Auswertungen) und Blutproben zur Verfügung gestellt werden.
09.06.2008
nanouk jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2008, 18:59   #20
mijke
Senior Member
 
mijke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Warnsveld
Posts: 2,033
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
CzW have a high amount of GSD, why the breed would be immune to the GSD problems?
of course without the same intensity because the different morphologic selection made in CzW, but every genetic problem wich appear in GSD must call our attention too, principally when it envolve working lines.
Hearth diseases, Cryptorchidism, Hip Displasy, Elbows Displasy, Demodex cannis, malignal brian cancer in young, in a breed with such poor genetic pool like CzW, any cases of illness must call our attention

even if it was only one, the breed not need to be mixed for show problems that before not appear, with such genetic pool, is only a time question for more and more hiden illness appear in pure breed dogs, that not mean that mixes will be more healty than pure dogs.

Of course yes, one CzW dwarf survive that means probably much others die before 1 week with this problem.
Thanks for your support
And of course mixes will never be more healthy!! (and they also can spread (not always direct visible) the health problems of 2 breeds!)

In GSD breed breeders were also denying health problems for years…..
Even when people did know there were dwarfs born, a lot of breeders were only blaming the breeders who did have a dwarf in their litter…

But thanks to a few honest breeders who did a lot of work without blaming others or mention names (for example they did collect for years blood examples of carriers of the mutated gen for investigation on university) now there is a test for this mutated gen for GSD and Saarloos.

But even when there is only one dwarf in CsW, it needs our attention!
For me it is not interesting on this moment who was the breeder or the line of this dog!

My only point is: to find owners of dogs who are proven carriers of the mutated gen for dwarfism in CsW breed to valid the test!
And only to find out if the test is also usable for CsW breed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelika View Post
Maybe I´m wrong but for one (?) SWD dwarf and maybe one CSW dwarf it´s a great effort to test the whole breeds Dysplasia or epilepsy appear much more important to me.
I don’t ask anybody to do test, because there is yet no test!!!And even when the test seems (in future) to be also valid for CsW, it is the choice of owners/breeders to test!

In Holland it is also not obligated for saarloos breeders to do the test. But I am glad for the future of the breed that a more owners and breeders are testing now before breeding.

And as you can read (on the English site link) the official breed club NVSW is still denying and telling this gen is not in their lines… But of course they do not want to do tests to prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
Yes, but first we can try to find if some family or line has this problem. My personal meaning in this moment is: it can be from some saarlos what was used in csw breeding.

Yes, it can be from GS, of course. But I think no, because here we don´t know some case of it. And in czech are only pure breed csw. If was some case by saarols breed, My personal meaning is- it can be in some "not so much clean" breeding. .
Before the test was available for Saarloos, a lot of people were only blaming some specific blood lines… And after the test it was surprising for some people that it was not only in those lines…

As I said before it is on this moment NOT interesting or useful to talk about lines, before we know if the test is valid for CsW.

I did have a lot of contact with the genetic specialists and I can tell you that they believe that the mutated gen comes from GSD. I did discuss with them these kind of opinions, but they are not convinced at all that it is coming from saarloos incross.

But believe me, when there is more info I’ll inform you !
__________________
Vriendelijke groeten,
Mijke

PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!
http://www.ursidaestee.wolfdog.org/voor%20wolfdog/handtekening/New%20format%20banner%20Wg.jpg
mijke jest offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Wolfdog.org