Dwarfism test for CSW?

[loco]

And if Mijke was not honest about it you would not know anything about it .

So who says there is only honest breeders off CSW ???
In whole EUROPA ??
Who says because you did not hear about in CZ that it is not there also ???

It also comes forward in very diffrent breeds.
Not only Saarloos and GS.
Also in mouse.
It even comes forward in to people.
So why not the CSW ??
Because we never heard about it ??

It can be only be a dead born pup who has it.
Or a pup who lived not long enough to see the diffrent with the other pups (2 or 3 weeks).
It is exceptional that the pup lived long enough to see that it is a dwarf.

But if everybody stays in denial there never comes a test.

Groette Martine.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by loco

And we can also think .
That it come's from the GS in the beginning ???

As the link says it is from the earlier 50s that it came out in the open, and when is the beginning of the breed CSW started??

Does it matter ? ??

Sure! I dont read completly the link but I pass the eye in a part wich say the first knowed case was in 53, of course we all know these problems already exist early the first case be related, but nobody cares for the puppies wich the mother kill, wich mystriously die and so on, most part of puppies with this problem die in the first week and in all breeds we can consider common a puppie die in this age, that's why nobody cares at first time, since a puppie with the problem survive suficiently to show the problem to the owner or breeder.
Work with breeders is pretty difficult, probably more cases of hipophysary dwarfism happen in other GSD breeding but the breeder told nobody about it for avoid gossips and rumors about his breeding.
CzW have a high amount of GSD, why the breed would be immune to the GSD problems? of course without the same intensity because the different morphologic selection made in CzW, but every genetic problem wich appear in GSD must call our attention too, principally when it envolve working lines.
Hearth diseases, Cryptorchidism, Hip Displasy, Elbows Displasy, Demodex cannis, malignal brian cancer in young, in a breed with such poor genetic pool like CzW, any cases of illness must call our attention even if it was only one, the breed not need to be mixed for show problems that before not appear, with such genetic pool, is only a time question for more and more hiden illness appear in pure breed dogs, that not mean that mixes will be more healty than pure dogs.

Originally Posted by loco

Because we never heard about it ??

It can be only be a dead born pup who has it.
Or a pup who lived not long enough to see the diffrent with the other pups (2 or 3 weeks).
It is exceptional that the pup lived long enough to see that it is a dwarf.

But if everybody stays in denial there never comes a test.

You can addict that the CzW breed is a relactivelly new breed, so most part of the problems wich the breed have are still unknow, that turn things more difficult.

[Hanka]

Originally Posted by loco

And if Mijke was not honest about it you would not know anything about it .

Yes, she can´t informate me about it of course. But she knows, I am in Czech breed comission and we have info about Czech population (health, problems, etc...) And when she wants some health info from me, I answer her usually.

Originally Posted by loco

So who says there is only honest breeders off CSW ???

Nobody. And I think nobody does it. Why you ask about it?

Originally Posted by loco

In whole EUROPA ??
Who says because you did not hear about in CZ that it is not there also ???

Nobody. But nobody tell it. Or yes?

Originally Posted by loco

It also comes forward in very diffrent breeds.

Yes. For example from malamut- in saarlos population. Why not....?

Originally Posted by loco

Not only Saarloos and GS.

Yes, but nobody told it here. Or yes?

Originally Posted by loco

Also in mouse.

))) No coment

Originally Posted by loco

It even comes forward in to people.
So why not the CSW ??

Exist some small %. but nobody told, it is not from CSW. I only wrote I THINK and we had not it in population in last years....

Originally Posted by loco

Because we never heard about it ??

You don´t know situation in breeding in Czech. Here is all under health control. Of course, every breeder can keep some problems "at home". And nothing is 100%

Originally Posted by loco

It can be only be a dead born pup who has it.

Yes, but we know how much pups was born in every litter and we ask why puppy was dead. Everybody can lie, but not the same breeder every litter, etc.

Originally Posted by loco

Or a pup who lived not long enough to see the diffrent with the other pups (2 or 3 weeks).
It is exceptional that the pup lived long enough to see that it is a dwarf.

But if everybody stays in denial there never comes a test.

And it is all what I will write with you in this problem. I think, you are new in wolfdog world. If Mijke will want inform me, she will do it. Or no....

[nanouk]

did you guys know that the NVSWH, the original breedclub in the netherlands does the same as some do here?
point fingers to TWD, say possible dwarfism only appaers in the SWDlines outside their protected breeding program and derives not from GS but from TWD

Malamute in saarloos population? nice rumours.. why mention this in this diskussion, when it is , thanks to gen research, more than obvious that the gen responsible for dwarfism in SWD is the similair one as in GS, not as in malamute

[Hanka]

Sorry. My writting about malamute was only "case", not really meaning. But as I know, was much discussions about "brown colour" in thear population. Some people told, there was some siberian husky. Mrs.Saarlos told NO. But from what is brown colour in this breed?
It must be some similar breed.

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Sorry. My writting about malamute was only "case", not really meaning. But as I know, was much discussions about "brown colour" in thear population. Some people told, there was some siberian husky. Mrs.Saarlos told NO. But from what is brown colour in this breed?
It must be some similar breed.

off topic, but did you know that in some rare cases, the brown, with liver nose, also is present in gs



Perhaps not the best of pictures, but a very plausible explanation for brown in SWD.

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

CzW have a high amount of GSD, why the breed would be immune to the GSD problems?
of course without the same intensity because the different morphologic selection made in CzW, but every genetic problem wich appear in GSD must call our attention too, principally when it envolve working lines.
Hearth diseases, Cryptorchidism, Hip Displasy, Elbows Displasy, Demodex cannis, malignal brian cancer in young, in a breed with such poor genetic pool like CzW, any cases of illness must call our attention

even if it was only one, the breed not need to be mixed for show problems that before not appear, with such genetic pool, is only a time question for more and more hiden illness appear in pure breed dogs, that not mean that mixes will be more healty than pure dogs.

Of course yes, one CzW dwarf survive that means probably much others die before 1 week with this problem.

Thanks for your support
And of course mixes will never be more healthy!! (and they also can spread (not always direct visible) the health problems of 2 breeds!)

In GSD breed breeders were also denying health problems for years…..
Even when people did know there were dwarfs born, a lot of breeders were only blaming the breeders who did have a dwarf in their litter…

But thanks to a few honest breeders who did a lot of work without blaming others or mention names (for example they did collect for years blood examples of carriers of the mutated gen for investigation on university) now there is a test for this mutated gen for GSD and Saarloos.

But even when there is only one dwarf in CsW, it needs our attention!
For me it is not interesting on this moment who was the breeder or the line of this dog!

My only point is: to find owners of dogs who are proven carriers of the mutated gen for dwarfism in CsW breed to valid the test!
And only to find out if the test is also usable for CsW breed.

Originally Posted by Angelika

Maybe I´m wrong but for one (?) SWD dwarf and maybe one CSW dwarf it´s a great effort to test the whole breeds Dysplasia or epilepsy appear much more important to me.

I don’t ask anybody to do test, because there is yet no test!!!And even when the test seems (in future) to be also valid for CsW, it is the choice of owners/breeders to test!

In Holland it is also not obligated for saarloos breeders to do the test. But I am glad for the future of the breed that a more owners and breeders are testing now before breeding.

And as you can read (on the English site link) the official breed club NVSW is still denying and telling this gen is not in their lines… But of course they do not want to do tests to prove it.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes, but first we can try to find if some family or line has this problem. My personal meaning in this moment is: it can be from some saarlos what was used in csw breeding.

Yes, it can be from GS, of course. But I think no, because here we don´t know some case of it. And in czech are only pure breed csw. If was some case by saarols breed, My personal meaning is- it can be in some "not so much clean" breeding. .

Before the test was available for Saarloos, a lot of people were only blaming some specific blood lines… And after the test it was surprising for some people that it was not only in those lines…

As I said before it is on this moment NOT interesting or useful to talk about lines, before we know if the test is valid for CsW.

I did have a lot of contact with the genetic specialists and I can tell you that they believe that the mutated gen comes from GSD. I did discuss with them these kind of opinions, but they are not convinced at all that it is coming from saarloos incross.

But believe me, when there is more info I’ll inform you !

[Angelika]

It took a bit longer, but finally I´ve got it. Thanks to all of you for your explanations

[loco]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

You can addict that the CzW breed is a relactivelly new breed, so most part of the problems wich the breed have are still unknow, that turn things more difficult.

Yes but there is now dwarfism and that can be solved by the test, and not by pointing finger at each other or a other breed .
Groette Martine.

[Angelika]

Maybe I´m wrong but for one (?) SWD dwarf and maybe one CSW dwarf it´s a great effort to test the whole breeds

Dysplasia or epilepsy appear much more important to me.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Angelika

Maybe I´m wrong but for one (?) SWD dwarf and maybe one CSW dwarf it´s a great effort to test the whole breeds

Dysplasia or epilepsy appear much more important to me.

Of course yes, one CzW dwarf survive that means probably much others die before 1 week with this problem.
Dysplasia is pretty difficult to make control using genetic tests because none know really all gens wich cause the problem, it's still in studie and be poligenic turn things more difficult, if I not deceif me with Epilepsy isn't different problem.

[nanouk]

Originally Posted by Angelika

Maybe I´m wrong but for one (?) SWD dwarf and maybe one CSW dwarf it´s a great effort to test the whole breeds

Dysplasia or epilepsy appear much more important to me.

I understand where you are coming from, but there is no need to test a whole population, if in fact there is proof of dwarfism under TWD and the test can be made available, a dna test for dogs used for breeding is not to expensive, you can deal with a problem as long as it still is incidental, and with smart breeding can make sure that less and less dogs need to be tested in future (mating two free animals gives you free animals so no need to test their offspring )

In SWD it is sadly more than just one dwarf, but like mentioned in the test, stillborn puppies , fading puppies, that might all have been dwarfs as well.. I#d rather know than take the guess..

To give some figures, last figures i got after the test was available:
36 SWD tested, 28 free, 7 carriers and 1 dwarf
(offcourse a couple more dwarfs are known from the past, these are just the facts with DNA testing done)

as of hd:

Neues Testverfahren für HD-Risiko entwickelt

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(huj) Einem Team um Professor Ottmar Distl am Institut für Tierzucht und Vererbungsforschung der Stiftung Tierärztliche Hochschule Hannover ist es mit Unterstützung des Vereins für Deutsche Schäferhunde gelungen, ein molekularbiologisches Testverfahren zu entwickeln, das es ermöglicht, das HD-Risiko mit hoher Wahrscheinlichkeit vorherzusagen. Wie VDH-Vorstandsmitglied Josef Pohling mitteilt, könne jetzt mit Hilfe des Testverfahrens die Schätzung der genomischen Zuchtwerte erfolgen. Im Unterschied zur in der Hundezucht verbreiteten Zuchtwertschätzung auf Basis der HD-Röntgenergebnisse spielen bei der genomischen Zuchtwertschätzung die Informationen von verwandten Tieren keine Rolle. Auf Grundlage der Auswertung einer Blutprobe beim Welpen kann das Risiko des Auftretens von HD im weiteren Verlauf seines Lebens vorausgesagt werden und bei den vorhandenen Zuchttieren die Paarungsplanung derart verbessert werden, dass die Zahl der HD-betroffenen Tiere weiter zurückgedrängt werden kann.
Der Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde stellte für das Forschungsprojekt die DNA-Proben und die HD-Auswertungen von über 1000 Hunden zur Verfügung. Am Anfang standen elf väterliche Halbgeschwisterfamilien mit insgesamt 459 Hunden. Die hieraus gewonnen Ergebnisse wurden in der Folge an 770 möglichst wenig miteinander verwandten Schäferhunden überprüft.
Professor Distl geht davon aus, dass die Erkenntnisse beim Deutschen Schäferhund mit einem deutlich geringeren Aufwand auf ihre Übertragbarkeit und Gültigkeit für andere Rassen überprüft werden können. Voraussetzung, so Pohling, sei aber, dass die erforderlichen Daten (Zuchtbuch in elektronischer Form, HD-Auswertungen) und Blutproben zur Verfügung gestellt werden.
09.06.2008