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Old 08-04-2011, 20:29   #1
draggar
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Default Database question - who did it?

Who did your database? I'm looking for something similar for the vlcaks in the USA, similar to what you have but far more involved.

I've been receiving quotes from different people (and I've received quite a range of quotes, too!!).
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:38   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draggar View Post
Who did your database? I'm looking for something similar for the vlcaks in the USA, similar to what you have but far more involved.

I've been receiving quotes from different people (and I've received quite a range of quotes, too!!).
Why do you want to invent a bicycle? You want to make an other database for wolfdogs in USA, but why is this one not enought?
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Old 10-04-2011, 14:18   #3
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Actually, there are two, the Pedigree Database has a vlcak section, too.

I don't want to reinvent something but enhance it. For example, the health certifications this one just lists HD, ED, and PRA (I think that's a health cert?). I've spoken to some owners here and all 3 breeding kennels and they'd like to see:

- DM (Degenerative Myelopathy) - Not Tested - N/N - N/a - a/a
- OFA Hips (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- PENN Hips (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- CERF (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- Elbows (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- Patella (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- Heart (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- Thyroid (not tested, tested + a text field for results)

We also would like to expand the registration part to include FCI and microchips (all companies).

No place on this one for the owner to put in a short biography of the dog (although I do like the "dog shows" section).

No advanced search (yes, it says there is but I don't see it). Just a simple keyword search.

Also, I see complaints in this section about how updates aren't being done in a timely manner, etc..

There are a lot of good things about this database here (in addition to being established) but it seems some important / critical pieces are missing. If the admins are willing to work to get it expanded, maybe we can stick with this one.
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Old 11-04-2011, 10:29   #4
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If you do your own database, do not forget to include the dwarf test too.
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Old 11-04-2011, 11:24   #5
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p.s Only Gonioscopy gives real results of the eye
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Old 11-04-2011, 17:55   #6
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And maybe you want to add Height at the withers, as you do not have any Bonitations in the US...

I know more info will bee added into the new Wolfdog.org database, but maybe a US one is a good ide anyway, for reasons like the example whit the height...

Very best regards and good luck / Mikael
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Old 11-04-2011, 20:38   #7
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I didn't know there was a PD issue with the vlcaks (and the issue with GSDs is small now) but I'll be sure to add it.

Satu - ? I did a quick Google search and it looks like it's only done on humans?

Mikael - height at the withers, not a bad idea.

I am willing to work with the admins on getting the one here complete so we don't have redundancy. I'd rather have one complete one than several different ones.
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Old 11-04-2011, 20:50   #8
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draggar - just main threads on PD here on wolfdog:

test available - http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10756
dwarves born - http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13387

it is an issue - although not pronounced yet - mostly because the pups either die or are not talked about
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Old 11-04-2011, 21:12   #9
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Thank you for the links - PD in CSV seems the same as in GSD - just a smaller version with other health issues that can be mild to severe. We had a PD scare with our GSD litter last year but we later learned that the sire will throw a small puppy who will look like a PD but then have a growth spirt (in the 3-8 month time frame I think) and the pup will catch up - and that is exactly what he did.

His PD test came back as negative, so he was just a small puppy (but a phenomenal temperament on him - one of the best we've seen in a male for working!). OUr vit did a lot of studying on it at that time, too, since there was the potential that one of her clients would have a PD.

Too bad there are the other health issues, PD pups would make excellent pets.
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Old 11-04-2011, 21:52   #10
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The biggest diffuculty with testing for PD for owners in the US, is that the only lab in the world testing for it is in Holland, and they require fresh blood (not an FTA card). The logistics are...difficult. The University of Missouri is currently collecting blood samples from dwarves and their family (parents, siblings, grandparents) for free, so maybe in the future we can also have a test also.
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Old 11-04-2011, 21:59   #11
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As far as I know you can also send isolated DNA, so for example Laboklin has the test in their offer.
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Old 11-04-2011, 22:05   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draggar View Post
Satu - ? I did a quick Google search and it looks like it's only done on humans?
No. In Finland vet. eye specialist make this also.
You can be sure my pack is going to the Gonioscopy. Baron have been there in last week.

Fu*k Google ask me .... Gonioscopy in dogshttp://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=...&aqi=&aql=&oq=
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Old 11-04-2011, 22:53   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Satu View Post
p.s Only Gonioscopy gives real results of the eye
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a Gonioscopy only detect goniodysgenesis (narrow angles)? Can other eye problems like corneal dystrophy and hypoplasia be detected with a gonioscopy?

Just asking, cause a breed club I know of (of another breed) recommends both CERF and a gonioscopy (breed is predisposed to glaucoma), as it a gonioscopy's results aren't covered by a CERF examination, but neither is all CERF results found by a gonioscopy either.
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Old 11-04-2011, 23:15   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yukidomari View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a Gonioscopy only detect goniodysgenesis (narrow angles)? Can other eye problems like corneal dystrophy and hypoplasia be detected with a gonioscopy?

Just asking, cause a breed club I know of (of another breed) recommends both CERF and a gonioscopy (breed is predisposed to glaucoma), as it a gonioscopy's results aren't covered by a CERF examination, but neither is all CERF results found by a gonioscopy either.
I mean ECVO AND Gonioscopy together can tell true.
I wrote this already elsewhere...
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Old 11-04-2011, 23:25   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Satu View Post
I mean ECVO AND Gonioscopy together can tell true.
I wrote this already elsewhere...
Sorry, I don't read every thread on the forum. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:15   #16
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I'd rather have everything in the database in the beginning so if I do go ahead with this I'll add PD (I'm assuming the results are like DM - N/N, N/a, and a/a?) and gonioscopy. Even if they aren't (easily) available in the USA - it'll probably cost less to have them added in the beginning as opposed to having them added later on.

The largest roadblock I'm having now are with two aspects:

Admins only can modify the health certifications (I don't want people lying, proof is important). IMO this is very important.

Two levels for non-admins, registered (requires approval for all entries, additions, and edits) and approved (does not require admin approval for entires, additions, and edits). This would mainly be for spam control. Known owners would be approved and then spam-bots won't be able to spam the database. This isn't as important, some scripts have an auto-approve option where if it is turned off the admin needs to approve all additions and changes.

Odd that there hasn't been a peep from the people running the DB here, though.
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Old 13-04-2011, 08:44   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draggar View Post
Actually, there are two, the Pedigree Database has a vlcak section, too.

I don't want to reinvent something but enhance it. For example, the health certifications this one just lists HD, ED, and PRA (I think that's a health cert?). I've spoken to some owners here and all 3 breeding kennels and they'd like to see:
Haha, nobody uses Pedigree database

Ok, I can understand people, who want to know as much as possible about their dog's health, but isn't this kind of database a little bit too much? Aren't you afraid of narrowing genopool even more? We allready read scary stories about people neutring their DM/N dogs. Look:

- DM (Degenerative Myelopathy) - Not Tested - N/N - N/a - a/a
- OFA Hips (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- PENN Hips (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- CERF (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- Elbows (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- Patella (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- Heart (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
- Thyroid (not tested, tested + a text field for results)
plus
- Height
- Dwarfism
- Bite/teeth set
- Training

Does it really seem sensible? What if a dog will still have some "weak" parts? Won't this dog become undesirable for breeding? What if we could test some very popular studs, that are no longer alive? Do you really think they would "meet" every punkt here?
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Old 13-04-2011, 12:31   #18
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Haha, I know at least one very good breeder, and important wolfdog.org "user" from Europe who had puppies advertised on pedigreedatabase last year...and updates their dogs on the website regularly. Right now, it's the only place that can generate a pedigree for a planned litter with younger dogs (who aren't on elf's cool tool) until the puppy tool is fixed on our site.

As I understood from Admin many months ago...won't there be more features - including health features - added to the "new database" on wolfdog.org? I believe the database was initially built/designed by Margo and her brother...not simply purchased.

As for health features, we already have public databases for many of the things here:
hips (OFA is the same as the test in Europe)
PennHip would be nice
elbows
CERF (it says PRA here)
height (in bonitation results)
training results
DM (on different site)
Dwarfism (on different site)
Bite/teeth (in bonitation results)

Patella, heart, and thyroid are the only results we don't have a database for - I know there are some heart problems in the breed, but don't know if tests show it - do we have problems with patella and thyroid? Are those necessary?

Also, if we talk only about dogs within the US...there is a public database on offa.org - if dogs have normal results, they are automatically displayed. If they are carriers/affected dogs, it is the owner's decision to display the results.

I, for one, like knowledge, more information and science in everything I do...as for the people who go on a witch hunt about genetics and spay and neuter...it's up to these people on their own to come out of the "dark ages" and use health results appropriately.
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Old 13-04-2011, 15:21   #19
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Marcy, I love your common sense and logical approach.
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Old 14-04-2011, 23:18   #20
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So then the question is - how inclusive do we want the US database to be? Do we want all the health certifications on there (I'm sure the price won't be much different if we add 5, 10, or 15 different options). Do we want an honor system for health certifications if we do have them (or links to the results)?

Do we want to give this database time to get what we want in it?

Maybe I should follow Marcy's example and make a survey for it.
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