Saarloos/AWD mixes by CsW

[admin]

Originally Posted by Janiz

Todle už je spíš vtipný, jestli si tady někdo chce hrát na soudce nebo spasitele plemene, možná ho tím spíš zničí!!!
Psů co mají v rodokmenech potomky CW od 2004, de Louba Tar, PDL či Foresta incantata je, nechci se pouštět do spekulací, ale prostě HODNĚ!!
Trochu mi to připomíná myšlenku "čisté rasy", což byl podobný nesmysl a jak to dopadlo všichni víme..

I hope I understand you right - anyway it sounds really ridiculous if it is written by FCI breeder. Does it mean that you are against breeding of PUREBREED dogs? So please tell me why do you breed dogs with pedigrees?

And one more time: it is not about speculations but about the FACTS! Passo del Lupo and Foresta Incatata are breeding Saarloos mixes and everybody who is a bit informed knows it already. They use the offsprings of white Canadian wolf and some kind of mongrel and mix them with CsW.

By the Louba tar the DNA tests were done - the story about pedigree cheating was pretty famous and you can confirm it by your kennel club officials. The same result gave the DNA tests done in Holland.

By Crying Wolf - please read one more time about the red Saarloos puppies born in the CW litter in France.

Of course nobody can force breeders to follow the FCI rules. If somebody want to cheat the pedigrees - he will find a country when nobody care about the rules. We can make something against cheaters only in "civilized" countries where Kennel Clubs follow the rules and require it also from their breeders.
If you also like the idea of cheating the pedigrees and cooperating with people who do it - it is your decision. But there are more and more honest and responsible people who do not want to have "mongrels with pedigrees" at home. And they are asking to mark out the suspected dogs.

[leila]

označenie je ale iná vec... ale úplné vyhodenie z databáze? alebo len inzerovanie? a nemyslím si, že každý kto má psa z týchto chovateľských staníc tým bude nadšený, pretože iste nechcel kupovať kríženca.
a pri CW - ide o všetky vrhy od 2004? narátala som cez 30 vrhov... takže aj napr. taký Gisotsu CW narodený v 2008? tým sa teraz dosť krylo aj v normálnych staniciach. bude aj on označený a všetky jeho vrhy blokované? trochu nechápem, ako to chcete regulovať, nakoľko pôjde o desiatky, môžno stovky psov...
Čítala som o tých červených nosoch u čsv a aj o rôznych mixoch na anglickom fóre, ale označiť všetky vrhy po týchto psoch za "podozrivé", to vyvolá prinajmenšom riadnu búrku protestov od dotknutých majiteľov...
I keď chápem túto ideu.

[leila]

p.s.: jo a pokiaľ máte jasné a jednoznačné DNA testy, že dané psy sú krížence, netreba to nahlásiť na FCI? odobrať vrhu papiere a FCI by malo zastaviť činnosť CHS? pokiaľ viem, tam je klauzula, že ak je dokázané kríženie a vydávanie falošných PP, bude zakázaná činnosť CHS.aspoň myslím, že to je takto nejako.

[admin]

Originally Posted by leila

označenie je ale iná vec... ale úplné vyhodenie z databáze? alebo len inzerovanie? a nemyslím si, že každý kto má psa z týchto chovateľských staníc tým bude nadšený, pretože iste nechcel kupovať kríženca.

It is exactly the point. Many people and breeders are angry because NOBODY makes something against the breeders of the mixes. Many people who bought the mixes had no idea that the puppy which they buy is Saarloos or AWD-mix - they were looking for a PURE CsW but they get an expensive mongrel.
And they blame Wolfdog.org for "PROMOTION" of the mixes because we "allow" the mixes owner to stay here and advertise their dogs as purebreed.

Already extremely angry was the French breeder who bought the two Crying Wolf dogs and get red puppies because she had to remove from breeding not only both dogs which were not cheap. But she also had to remove all the line (all offsprings of Sybir and Thalia Crying Wolf). Can you imagine how angry were the owners?

It is the reason why more and more people expect that we will make something against the breeders of mixes and their fake CsWs.


But: we do not plan to remove any dogs from the database. The mixes will be put there as it was before. There will be only more markings of the suspected dogs...

All PDL and Foresta incantata Saarlooses (and their offsprings) will be marked in the database and Saarloos Mixes (what they really are).

The the "French Wolfdogs" (AWD-crosses bred by "de La Louve blanche" & co) will be marked as "Mixes" according to the rule:
- whole litters where there are AWD-crosses will be marked as MIXES (in the database: (!_MIX_!)) - it was done so already before
- new is: the parents of such dogs will be marked as possible mixes (in the database (?_MIX_?) because there is never sure if the mixes were done in the specific generation or one generation before).
- all dogs coming from the kennels who breed/bred mixes (de Louba Tar, Passo del Lupo, Crying Wolf, Foresta Incantata) and the Saarloos kennels (for example: d'Emozioni Breizh, Inguz Felan, Sun Gifu) will be marked with (_!_) - it will be the warning for all owners and breeder that they can not be sure if the dogs coming from the mentioned kennels are pure. It will be their decision to use such dogs or not.

At the same time more and more dog owners offer their help. More and more owners send the blood of their dogs to Antagene where everybody who own offspring of their dogs can check if it really match.

Originally Posted by leila

Aj na Slovensku máme psov z CW a chová sa na nich, alebo plánuje. Ale kto sa opováži povedať, že tvoj pes nie je to, čo má v papieroch, ale je to kríženec? Ako to chce WD dokazovať? Nútiť majiteľov, aby spravili DNA testy? Keď chovateľ nie je ochotný poskytnúť DNA rodičov?

I think there is a "cultural" problem - the DNA testing is nothing special and in more and more countries it is already REQUIRED. More countries are thinking about it because it will finish the problem of not honest breeders.
The reason is: the countries which are member of FCI are RESPONSIBLE for their pedigrees. If somebody will cheat pedigrees in CZ the CMKU(?)-your kennel club must care for it. It is the obligation of the FCI member country. CMKU can not say: we can not control it. Because in such case the CMKU would break the most important FCI rule and show that it is not able to control the breeders (to operate).
DNA testing is one of the basic controls over the breeders.

You ask what to do if the breeder do not want to give the DNA of the parents? My question is: WHY a breeder should do it if he/she has noting to hide. If a breeder do not want to give the blood of the parents it is already best proof that it is not responsible breeder who want to hide the cheating. There is no other explanation for it.
None of the real breeders had something against making the DNA tests. Only the cheater are afraid of it.

Originally Posted by leila

p.s.: jo a pokiaľ máte jasné a jednoznačné DNA testy, že dané psy sú krížence, netreba to nahlásiť na FCI? odobrať vrhu papiere a FCI by malo zastaviť činnosť CHS? pokiaľ viem, tam je klauzula, že ak je dokázané kríženie a vydávanie falošných PP, bude zakázaná činnosť CHS.aspoň myslím, že to je takto nejako.

No, it is not working. It was send to the French kennel club - but the club seems not to be interested. They protect the mixes as they are breed by people who are friends of some French judges. We were informed that many officials from the French kennel club know about the mixes but nobody want to "touch this shit". It is the problem - if the officials in Hungary and France do not want to do anything with it. If even the origin clubs in CZ and SK are ignoring the fact of spreading mixes among the population - we were asked to do something with it. And we will do the best we can.

[sdivokoukrvi]

Originally Posted by Admin

All PDL and Foresta incantata Saarlooses (and their offsprings) will be marked in the database and Saarloos Mixes (what they really are).
.

You do your ass or you're serious? Each child will be PDL MIX? Similarly, you care only about their own puppies to sell and not have competition: D nothing else .. unfortunately

[admin]

Originally Posted by Alissea

You do your ass or you're serious? Each child will be PDL MIX? Similarly, you care only about their own puppies to sell and not have competition: D nothing else .. unfortunately

No, I do not care about their puppies because I know that PDL and Foresta can care for themself and find people who like to have "wolfish" Saarloos even with cheated CsW pedigree. Fighting with them is not a competition but taking care for CsW breeding. And it is surprising that exactly you - a Czech breeder are for promotion of breeding mixes while you should protect your national breed and work done by Hartl. Or at least you should show that you respect the FCI rules which clearly say that pedigree cheating is not allowed and must be punished.

I'm only happy to know that there are still responsible breeders in your country because I know it was exactly Czech Breed Club who banned Mutaras and kicked them out to Italy. So there must be still responsible breeders who care for the breed and not only for selling the puppies.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Alissea

You do your ass or you're serious? Each child will be PDL MIX?

I read it again and I think you have problem with understanding my English. Anyway calm down and read what I wrote:

All PDL and Foresta incantata Saarlooses (and their offsprings) will be marked in the database and Saarloos Mixes (what they really are).

It is not about all PDL dogs!!! Before you attack anybody else - please ask someone for translation. I really can not write it in Czech language. So maybe someone will make translation.

[RadeKKK]

[quote=Admin;423519]
All PDL and Foresta incantata Saarlooses (and their offsprings) will be marked in the database and Saarloos Mixes (what they really are).

Od kdy májí Fabio a Andrea Saarloose? Co je to za blbost?

[sdivokoukrvi]

Originally Posted by Admin

All PDL and Foresta incantata Saarlooses (and their offsprings) will be marked in the database and Saarloos Mixes (what they really are).

It is not about all PDL dogs!!! Before you attack anybody else - please ask someone for translation. I really can not write it in Czech language. So maybe someone will make translation.

So I translated it as my colleague speaks English fluently and understand it anyway

překlad ala jsem blbec
All - znaměná všechno
and their offsprings - jejich potomci
will be marked - bude označen
in database - v databázi
and saarlos mixes - saarlosův mix
what they really are - což skutečně jsou

TAKŽE CO ŽE JSEM SI ŠPATNĚ PŘELOŽILA?
So what that me translated????

[RadeKKK]

[quote=Admin;423510]

All PDL and Foresta incantata Saarlooses (and their offsprings) will be marked in the database and Saarloos Mixes (what they really are).

Chápete vůbec rozdíl mezi Saarloosem a a F1 generací ch.s. Mutara?
Foresta incantata zapsala svojí F2 do registru , ne jako ČSV, tak co jí tady očerňujete?

[sdivokoukrvi]

Originally Posted by Admin

And one more time: it is not about speculations but about the FACTS! Passo del Lupo and Foresta Incatata are breeding Saarloos mixes and everybody who is a bit informed knows it already. They use the offsprings of white Canadian wolf and some kind of mongrel and mix them with CsW.

.

So my dog is a hybrid course? Are you kidding me or you're serious? and your head is in order? Yes, the female has a grandfather and on the PDL? So it's bad now? Just to be a descendant of Mutare? Wow, this is the peak of stupidity

[RadeKKK]

Originally Posted by Alissea

So my dog is a hybrid course? Are you kidding me or you're serious? and your head is in order? Yes, the female has a grandfather and on the PDL? So it's bad now? Just to be a descendant of Mutare? Wow, this is the peak of stupidity

Tak když půjdem do detajlů. Co takhle podívat se na datum narození Induka ( 15.1.2004) a narození potomků Mutar ( 2006) ? Takže žádám o omluvu mé feně a jejím potomkům !!!!
PS : All PDL (and their offsprings ) rozumím všechny!!!! Takže tu omluvu !!

[sdivokoukrvi]

Originally Posted by RadeKKK

Tak když půjdem do detajlů. Co takhle podívat se na datum narození Induka ( 15.1.2004) a narození potomků Mutar ( 2006) ? Takže žádám o omluvu mé feně a jejím potomkům !!!!
PS : All PDL (and their offsprings ) rozumím všechny!!!! Takže tu omluvu !!

Taky beru All PDL jako překlad všechny PDL

[Jana_Schubertova]

Originally Posted by Alissea

Taky beru All PDL jako překlad všechny PDL

Nejspíš to mělo znamenat: "Všichni 'Saarlosi' z chovatelských stanic PDL a Foresta Incantata budou označeni...."
Poznámka překladatele-jako moje :za Saarlose se tady rozumí potomci Mutar, jelikož vznikli, stejně jako Saarlos z Kanadské vlčice, nikoliv Karpatské.

[sdivokoukrvi]

Originally Posted by Jana_Schubertova

Nejspíš to mělo znamenat: "Všichni 'Saarlosi' z chovatelských stanic PDL a Foresta Incantata budou označeni...."
Poznámka překladatele-jako moje :za Saarlose se tady rozumí potomci Mutar, jelikož vznikli, stejně jako Saarlos z Kanadské vlčice, nikoliv Karpatské!

děkuji t akže snad opavdu došlo jen k překladatelkému šumu a tím pádem bych se za svůj omyl i omluvila, stím problém nemám Ono mě by už totiž tady nepřekvapilo, kdyby to hodili všechno do jednoho pytle