good training/behaviour young CSV

TimoleonVieta · 12-29-2011, 05:21 AM

as the old saying goes ... fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

liverpool? oh no

Man Utd all the way :P[/quote]

Haha in Merseyside? so I see you must have steel grills on your house windows

seriously thanks for the advice, I have several vehicles so I will have to judge what is best. But I am hoping she will like sitting next to me when I am driving because I like the company & preferably not in a cage because how can I pat her head on those long drives !

Maddie · 12-29-2011, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originariamente inviata da TimoleonVieta

Haha in Merseyside? so I see you must have steel grills on your house windows

seriously thanks for the advice, I have several vehicles so I will have to judge what is best. But I am hoping she will like sitting next to me when I am driving because I like the company & preferably not in a cage because how can I pat her head on those long drives !

haha, would you be surprised if i told you my house looked out onto a field, a stones throw from a field to the right, and backs onto a horse paddock?

its no worries ... im still waiting for the day where i can have my own csv, but all it means is that there is more time for research

and i'm sure i will never know everything, even when i have one!

Czertice · 12-29-2011, 08:59 PM

Hi TimoleonVieta, welcome to the forum!

You will find my stories in English on my webpage. Raksha is still young, but she is much better behaved than what I prepared for according to the warning stories.

She lives outside the house, so the material damage she makes is minimal.

We socialized her thoroughly, there was no panic, she has a calm temperament.
The socialization process taught us, however, that puppy can be surprised or afraid of the strangest things - a limping person, umbrella, playground rocking horse.

Socialization with other canines - we were surprised when she grew adult that she started to growl at some of the female dogs we met. She still can go to a park and play with most of the dogs there, but I have to be careful when introducing her to strange females.
This same-sex hostility is something very common in CSWs, I'm being told.

TimoleonVieta · 12-30-2011, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originariamente inviata da Czertice

Hi TimoleonVieta, welcome to the forum!

You will find my stories in English on my webpage. Raksha is still young, but she is much better behaved than what I prepared for according to the warning stories.

I really enjoyed the webpage, it's a mine of information for the novice & photographer to. Konrad Lorenz seems to have had a good effect on you as well as the breeders good advice you sought. I will look more into Mr Lorenz he's ideas are facinating.

May I ask, considering you had Shiva the cat at the time you brought your puppy home, how you think things might have gone had you had your own 8 month old female collie dog or similar at the home when you introduced Raksha to your lives.

It is a hard thing to hypothesize but do you think this may have helped Raksha bond with other females & been a managable relationship in itself.

I am attracted to this combination because I feel that a well loved & secure collie is one of the most humble animals on earth. That it may prove to be a nice foil & friend for the CSV. Not only that I want a CSV so much but couldn't wait 13 years or more for another collie!

Czertice · 12-31-2011, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originariamente inviata da TimoleonVieta

I really enjoyed the webpage, it's a mine of information for the novice & photographer to. Konrad Lorenz seems to have had a good effect on you as well as the breeders good advice you sought. I will look more into Mr Lorenz he's ideas are facinating.

May I ask, considering you had Shiva the cat at the time you brought your puppy home, how you think things might have gone had you had your own 8 month old female collie dog or similar at the home when you introduced Raksha to your lives.

It is a hard thing to hypothesize but do you think this may have helped Raksha bond with other females & been a managable relationship in itself.

I am attracted to this combination because I feel that a well loved & secure collie is one of the most humble animals on earth. That it may prove to be a nice foil & friend for the CSV. Not only that I want a CSV so much but couldn't wait 13 years or more for another collie!

I honestly don't have a clue about a collie, cats live in a whole different world from dogs:]
I have been warned that if you already have a dog, the wolfdog puppy might bond more with the dog than with you, or be too much dependent on the other dog.
Raksha can live with Shiva, but her relationship with him has no effect on her behavior to other cats, she loves chasing them, no matter what.

Rona · 12-31-2011, 10:51 AM

It's very hard to write about upbringing and traning a vlcak, becasue it's a very "private" experience and depends a lot on the individal character of the dog and the owner. There is more of relationship building than training itslef in it, and methods that work for one CSV not necessarily do for another.

IMO a person who is mentally strong and is aware of his own strengths and weaknesses + has learnt about the breed specificity and is open minded has better chance to succeed than someboy who carries a vision what his dog should be like and wants to tailor it to this shape. I don't mean you, these are just general comments.

There are some principles of which it's good to know:
1. vlcaks are meant to teach their owners humility - and thus people who have more distance to themselves and are able to take things with humour are more prone to enjoy their vlcak pups. They take a lot from their owners, but always give more, that's why it's so easy to forgive them all their mischiefs. When they're young every day's a bit like this:

General principle: never boast about a young vlcak because this is asking for trouble

2. They are exteremly rational in their "reasoning", though the reasoning is not necessarily human-like. Thus the ability to understands what the vlcak wants to tell you is crucial for training. The owner must remember that in case of CSVs communication is a two-way process to much greater extent than in case of other breeds. Vlcaks never destroy things for fun - it is one of the methods they communiate things to their owners - a signal that the communiation channel must be improved. They learn by doing, so whenever they do something bad, don't give them any chance to repeat that.

3. Vlcaks' senses are more sensitive than of other dogs and definitely of humans' and their empathy is enorumous. This may lead to problems, because the dog might react to something "mysterious" the owner is not aware of. Our late Tina was most placid and trustful animal, but three times in her 14 years long life reacted with agression or fear towards humans. In one case we later found out the guy was a dog fat trader (

) , in another - a person guilty of home violence. She simply "knew" what we couldn't have known.

4 If the owner manages to build a sound relationship with the dog, the dog will behave in a rational way in genuine circumstances. GSD trainers often say that CSVs are dumb because they don't obey 100%. But then, why should they? They have their own brains and know when obedinece is vital, and when they're only doing things for fun and sport. That's why it's good if a vclak has a job - does something which is imporant for the owner and "genuine" in the dog's perception.

We can take our vlcak everywhere now, just like we were able to take our late Tina: to a party, restaurant, store, to walk with her in the woods without a leash, she's extremely good with our grandson (2). We can travel with her by bus, tram and in a car, we take her to dog playground (though have to be careful with strange, fearful females, like others mentioned above). We practise mantrailing and she treats this very seriously - this is her real job! But we've learnt all those things by doing, and on the way experienced several ups and downs, which were part of the fun of having a CSV.

There are still things we simply have to put up with, like her welcome jumping on the people she loves

We treat this as part of the mutual contract and secretly enjoy

I hope these comments will help you understand your little girl when she arrives. Happy New Year!

Shadowlands · 12-31-2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originariamente inviata da Rona

General principle: never boast about a young vlcak because this is asking for trouble

Very good post Rona, but particularly liked this bit of advice

Baz · 01-03-2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originariamente inviata da Rona

GSD trainers often say that CSVs are dumb because they don't obey 100%.

Haha CSV owners (at least this one

), & owners of other breeds where I train say that GSDs are like robots or remote - controlled cars. The last thing that my CSV is, is dumb, she learns much quicker than any of the GSDs who I train with (& is much better behaved - normally

), however because she is smart, she sometimes says "I already learned how to do this, why do I have to do it again & again & again & again?" The trick with CSVs I think (& I guess with most dogs) is to stop them from getting bored when training, a little & often is more often better than continuous repetition.

Baz · 01-03-2012, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originariamente inviata da Czertice

I have been warned that if you already have a dog, the wolfdog puppy might bond more with the dog than with you, or be too much dependent on the other dog.

My housemate has 2 bitches & when I brought my puppy home (aged about 7 weeks), she originally slept downstairs with the other girls. I was at training a week or two later & the trainer asked me to call her, which I did but I got no response, he asked where she was sleeping & I told him & he said exactly the same, that she was bonding to one of my housemate's dogs. His suggestion was to take her to sleep in my room until she was at least 4 months old & then slowly move her out as I wished. Immediately that I did that she started to respond much better to me, she still has 2 great friends to play with but she knows who her "daddy" is.

Quote:

Originariamente inviata da TimoleonVieta

May I ask, considering you had Shiva the cat at the time you brought your puppy home, how you think things might have gone had you had your own 8 month old female collie dog or similar at the home when you introduced Raksha to your lives.

It is a hard thing to hypothesize but do you think this may have helped Raksha bond with other females & been a managable relationship in itself.

I am attracted to this combination because I feel that a well loved & secure collie is one of the most humble animals on earth. That it may prove to be a nice foil & friend for the CSV. Not only that I want a CSV so much but couldn't wait 13 years or more for another collie!

Again I can only give advice from my point of view (1st CSV, female aged 9 months) & from what I've read, but my girl had no problems with my housemate's dogs whatsoever & about 6 weeks ago I adopted a little stray mongrel & at first my CSV was a little jealous but after 2 weeks they were like best friends. I have read & believe it to be true (again at least in my experience so far) that CSVs will get on with most animals that are in your household (including livestock), so I don't see that having a Collie should present you with any serious problems, I would say that because of the strong pack instinct I think it's not a bad idea to consider another dog as a companion, problems are more likely (or should I say possible) with strange or unknown animals & people.

TimoleonVieta · 12-30-2011, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originariamente inviata da Maddie

haha, would you be surprised if i told you my house looked out onto a field, a stones throw from a field to the right, and backs onto a horse paddock?

its no worries ... im still waiting for the day where i can have my own csv, but all it means is that there is more time for research

and i'm sure i will never know everything, even when i have one!

That sounds idyllic Maddie, what a wonderful place to bring up any dog. I hope when the day comes it will be worth the wait. Thanks very much for your time & trouble

12-29-2011, 08:59 PM	#3
Czertice Rakša Registrato dal: Oct 2009 ubicazione: Praha Messaggi: 292	Hi TimoleonVieta, welcome to the forum! You will find my stories in English on my webpage. Raksha is still young, but she is much better behaved than what I prepared for according to the warning stories. She lives outside the house, so the material damage she makes is minimal. We socialized her thoroughly, there was no panic, she has a calm temperament. The socialization process taught us, however, that puppy can be surprised or afraid of the strangest things - a limping person, umbrella, playground rocking horse. Socialization with other canines - we were surprised when she grew adult that she started to growl at some of the female dogs we met. She still can go to a park and play with most of the dogs there, but I have to be careful when introducing her to strange females. This same-sex hostility is something very common in CSWs, I'm being told. __________________

12-31-2011, 10:51 AM	#6
Rona Distinguished Member Registrato dal: Aug 2004 ubicazione: Kraków Messaggi: 3,509	It's very hard to write about upbringing and traning a vlcak, becasue it's a very "private" experience and depends a lot on the individal character of the dog and the owner. There is more of relationship building than training itslef in it, and methods that work for one CSV not necessarily do for another. IMO a person who is mentally strong and is aware of his own strengths and weaknesses + has learnt about the breed specificity and is open minded has better chance to succeed than someboy who carries a vision what his dog should be like and wants to tailor it to this shape. I don't mean you, these are just general comments. There are some principles of which it's good to know: 1. vlcaks are meant to teach their owners humility - and thus people who have more distance to themselves and are able to take things with humour are more prone to enjoy their vlcak pups. They take a lot from their owners, but always give more, that's why it's so easy to forgive them all their mischiefs. When they're young every day's a bit like this: General principle: never boast about a young vlcak because this is asking for trouble 2. They are exteremly rational in their "reasoning", though the reasoning is not necessarily human-like. Thus the ability to understands what the vlcak wants to tell you is crucial for training. The owner must remember that in case of CSVs communication is a two-way process to much greater extent than in case of other breeds. Vlcaks never destroy things for fun - it is one of the methods they communiate things to their owners - a signal that the communiation channel must be improved. They learn by doing, so whenever they do something bad, don't give them any chance to repeat that. 3. Vlcaks' senses are more sensitive than of other dogs and definitely of humans' and their empathy is enorumous. This may lead to problems, because the dog might react to something "mysterious" the owner is not aware of. Our late Tina was most placid and trustful animal, but three times in her 14 years long life reacted with agression or fear towards humans. In one case we later found out the guy was a dog fat trader () , in another - a person guilty of home violence. She simply "knew" what we couldn't have known. 4 If the owner manages to build a sound relationship with the dog, the dog will behave in a rational way in genuine circumstances. GSD trainers often say that CSVs are dumb because they don't obey 100%. But then, why should they? They have their own brains and know when obedinece is vital, and when they're only doing things for fun and sport. That's why it's good if a vclak has a job - does something which is imporant for the owner and "genuine" in the dog's perception. We can take our vlcak everywhere now, just like we were able to take our late Tina: to a party, restaurant, store, to walk with her in the woods without a leash, she's extremely good with our grandson (2). We can travel with her by bus, tram and in a car, we take her to dog playground (though have to be careful with strange, fearful females, like others mentioned above). We practise mantrailing and she treats this very seriously - this is her real job! But we've learnt all those things by doing, and on the way experienced several ups and downs, which were part of the fun of having a CSV. There are still things we simply have to put up with, like her welcome jumping on the people she loves We treat this as part of the mutual contract and secretly enjoy I hope these comments will help you understand your little girl when she arrives. Happy New Year! __________________

12-29-2011, 05:21 AM	#1
TimoleonVieta Junior Member Registrato dal: Dec 2011 ubicazione: Cambidge Messaggi: 37	as the old saying goes ... fail to prepare, prepare to fail. liverpool? oh no Man Utd all the way :P[/quote] Haha in Merseyside? so I see you must have steel grills on your house windows seriously thanks for the advice, I have several vehicles so I will have to judge what is best. But I am hoping she will like sitting next to me when I am driving because I like the company & preferably not in a cage because how can I pat her head on those long drives !