Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[Sona_Bognarova]

I am responding not only on the topic of Issar Kollarov dvor’s paternity but on paternity dispute in general. We all know well that only DNA tests compulsory in all countries can solve the situation finally. False data on parents can impact all breeders and owners. Financial issue is complicated, but solvable. I assume that it should be organised officially on breeders’ clubs or superior organisations (if there is no CSW club in a particular country yet) level.
At present, Issar Kollarov dvor really is in Crying Wolf kennel but I am still his owner. Mating Issar x Flash CW (litter Y CW) happened when Issar was still at my place and when I was present there.
Slovak CSW club asked me for co-operation in this particular case yesterday, therefore I will provide the Slovak club with potential information. I will deal with the situation in close contact with Edit Molnar, of course.
However, the whole CSW community should realise that accusing any particular breeder on any forum and asking for DNA test that way we will never achieve anything. Doing a DNA test is just the step A, we have to think about consequent steps as well. In cases of particular DNA tests carried out BEFORE introducing compulsory tests in all countries it will be inevitable to answer many questions, such as:

Who is eligible to ask for a test?
Provided the owner/breeder agrees to do the test, who covers the test and related costs?
What happens if the test confirms the parents data being false?

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

Who is eligible to ask for a test?
Provided the owner/breeder agrees to do the test, who covers the test and related costs?
What happens if the test confirms the parents data being false?

Well, at least in Lithuania it works like this:
If there is a serious possibility (accusation with arguments), that parents of a litter might be others than written in pedigree, Lithuanian Cynological society has a right to ask the breeder for DNA tests. If the answer shows, that the parents are REALLY the ones, that are written in pedigree, the Cynological society pays for the tests. If DNA shows, that breeder was cheating, he/she pays for it. I am sure there is a way to "cancel" the legitimacy of the pedigrees of the litter - just to put a stamp "not for breeding"

This weekend had unofficial conversation with the authorities of Lithuanian Cynological society about a cases of mixes in some countries. In their opinion, kennel clubs of these countries should be really interested in cases like de la louve blanche kennel's Such facts make bad impact for the reputation of all the breeders in that country, so I guess there is only one way - informing the kennel clubs of sertain countries about cheating with pedigrees.

[Rona]

Could somebody knowlegeable explain what it means exactly that Kennel Club of a particular country is responsible for a particular breed? I imagine the KC must keep and guard the original herd books and approve any changes in the breed standard. But are there any other international/legal rights and obligations connected with being the "breed-guard"?

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

Could somebody knowlegeable explain what it means exactly that Kennel Club of a particular country is responsible for a particular breed? I imagine the KC must keep and guard the original herd books and approve any changes in the breed standard. But are there any other international/legal rights and obligations connected with being the "breed-guard"?

Kennel club (the main one, like Związek Kynologiczny w Polsce in Poland) gives dogs their pedigrees and put their name on them - so they should be very interested in using the name of their organisation on some faked pedigrees.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Kennel club (the main one, like Związek Kynologiczny w Polsce in Poland) gives dogs their pedigrees and put their name on them - so they should be very interested in using the name of their organisation on some faked pedigrees.

It's logical what you write and I fully agree... But my question was what legal rights and obligations would Związek Kynologiczny w Polsce have if some foreign breeder(s) tried to fake pedigrees of Polish national breeds litters, e.g. of Polish hound or Tatra sheepdog... Would the Polish KC have any authority and 'legal space' to act in such situations or would everything depend on the KC of the country where the fraud took place?

I'm not mentioning particular breed clubs, because I assume they should in principle cooperate closely with their national kennel club, which affiliate directly with FCI (?)

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

Who is eligible to ask for a test?
Provided the owner/breeder agrees to do the test, who covers the test and related costs?
What happens if the test confirms the parents data being false?

Under the AKC in the USA, persons can submit information and evidence of falsifying pedigree and/or "hanging" papers - meaning that the registration papers are real, but meant for another litter or perhaps extra registrations from another litter were used on a false litter- to the AKC investigations board.. they can and will request DNA and I assume pay for this testing.

If the tests confirm the parents data being false, the AKC has, and continues to, issue suspensions to the breeders/kennel of all privileges, this includes registering new litters, transferring existing dogs (no papers will be provided for this), showing dogs, etc etc. The suspensions can last anything from a few weeks to even 10 years or even a life-time suspension, depending on severity, intent, etc. Also, such a suspension often accompanies fines in the thousands of USD.

Furthermore, falsified litters do have their pedigree and registrations revoked and removed from the stud books. Finally, the AKC can make reinstatement after suspension of privileges contingent upon the kennel starting out with all new breed stock from known lines and pedigrees.

Here is an example of the announced suspensions during one board meeting (starting from around the middle of the page):

http://www.akc.org/about/board_minutes/2002/1002.cfm

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

At present, Issar Kollarov dvor really is in Crying Wolf kennel but I am still his owner. Mating Issar x Flash CW (litter Y CW) happened when Issar was still at my place and when I was present there.

Draggar, I think if we cannot trust Sonya, than we can trust nobody, including ourselves.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by saschia

Draggar, I think if we cannot trust Sonya, than we can trust nobody, including ourselves.

But does this preclude a double-covering if the timing was right?

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by saschia

Draggar, I think if we cannot trust Sonya, than we can trust nobody, including ourselves.

only one - question - was this female ALL time per shes heat in Sonja house or not? if a little read about ovulation - female in this same heat can mate with moore males whenh shes ovulation are longer like one day.
but realy reproductor owner all time want a DNA test and have later easy antswer who is who.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

At present, Issar Kollarov dvor really is in Crying Wolf kennel but I am still his owner. Mating Issar x Flash CW (litter Y CW) happened when Issar was still at my place and when I was present there.

I'm not sure where this comment is going - I'm assuming that you're saying the breeding took place at where you are (and not that someone else was claiming to use a stud that was in your posession?) and that you (for the lack of a better phrase) managed the actual mating (you were there, made sure everything went OK, etc..)?

My concern is that Pollux (Yolka's son) exhibits some Saarloos behavior - I've never denied that he's large or rather skittish. We never attributed his size to anything and thought his temeprament was from enviroment and not genetic. Genetics (especially recessive genetics) tend to pop up in grandchildren which is what Pollux would be to the sire in question (Issar).

We have to Yolka children in this country (both from the P litter) and if there is mix in there we'd need to know quickly before they're in the gene pool here in the USA - it would be devastating to the breed if we have to take many dogs out of the breeding pool ~10 years from now because of this. Our gene pool here is already very small and I'm sure people can understand the concern that I have over this.

Originally Posted by saschia

Draggar, I think if we cannot trust Sonya, than we can trust nobody, including ourselves.

It wasn't a matter of trust, I just missed her post.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by draggar

We have to Yolka children in this country (both from the P litter) and if there is mix in there we'd need to know quickly before they're in the gene pool here in the USA - it would be devastating to the breed if we have to take many dogs out of the breeding pool ~10 years from now because of this. Our gene pool here is already very small and I'm sure people can understand the concern that I have over this.

Well, you/your wife are in control of Pollux and I don't know if Partha's owner is planning to breed her. It's pretty controllable at this point.. if in doubt, just don't breed them at all?

[draggar]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Well, you/your wife are in control of Pollux and I don't know if Partha's owner is planning to breed her. It's pretty controllable at this point.. if in doubt, just don't breed them at all?

Technically we're not in complete controll, his "owner" still has full control but I'm sure my wife's opinions and suggestions will carry some weight. It'll be sad if he is a mix, he does have some good qualities (he's goofy in the house, he's very good looking, he does well out on the schutzhund field, I'm sure he'll be a good tracker, etc), he's also starting to be protective of the house, etc.

I'm also trying to make sure I have the right person who owns Partha before I start to talk to them.

[GalomyOak]

While 68 cm is very unusual and certainly I think there are some other untypical features from the Y litter, I guess it's not totally impossible to believe Issar's genetics could have contributed to the height. These dogs, also coming from the lines of Ada Kollorav Dvor, also had unusually (at least to me) tall height:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7446
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/9857
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/5187
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1919
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1339

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by draggar

Technically we're not in complete controll, his "owner" still has full control but I'm sure my wife's opinions and suggestions will carry some weight. It'll be sad if he is a mix, he does have some good qualities (he's goofy in the house, he's very good looking, he does well out on the schutzhund field, I'm sure he'll be a good tracker, etc), he's also starting to be protective of the house, etc.

I'm also trying to make sure I have the right person who owns Partha before I start to talk to them.

Hello,

I know Yolka and I know several Saarlos-Mixes, she doesn´t look like one and she doesn´t behave like one. I know for sure that Juri mated Yolka and that she was seperated from other males at this time. The behaviour you decribe from Pollux is pretty common in CSW with his history. A history that started with an 38 hours oversea flight and changing place in a sensible period several times. Saarlos by the way are useless in Schutzhund, not really protectiv and I have never seen one track.

Juri is 72 cm of high, Lorenz Farouk Arimminum is 70 cm, and our bitches tend to produce males with the lowest high of 68 cm till now, they are all big.
If you need an DNA-Test I am very sure that Mariana the owner of Juri will make one for you and I am also pretty sure that Edit will let one have done in for example the Vet Clinik in Budapest if you request one.

So I think it is time to calm down a little bit. I have seen some of the questionable dogs of the Louve de la Louve Blanche kennel and also would be more than interested in an OFFICIAL DNA test, I also would think DNA profiles would be a good thing in general, but I personally don´t think Crying wolf has been involved in this. If they are mixes parents have been exchanged in France, not in Hungary. Size is no proof for mixes, a total change of look in sibblings of different litters or nordic wolf faces or changes in colour is.

Regards
Ina

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by wolfin

only one - question - was this female ALL time per shes heat in Sonja house or not? if a little read about ovulation - female in this same heat can mate with moore males whenh shes ovulation are longer like one day.
but realy reproductor owner all time want a DNA test and have later easy antswer who is who.

To be honest I find it rather strange not to trust Sonjas words, I know you know her quite well, we both know that she will not give a statement like this if she wouldn´t be sure.
At this point we maybe should stop and think a little bit about what we are hopping on here. A virtual person has thrown in an idea basing on some photos. looking especially on the photo with the weak Saarlos impression I had to grin, I know one Czech female - of her origin I have no doubt at all - that looks exacly the same, apart from a totally untypical head.

Ina

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

Doing a DNA test is just the step A,

Who is eligible to ask for a test ?
Provided the owner/breeder agrees to do the test, who covers the test and related costs?

I want to clarify that for me, the only thing that mattered was whether the father was well Galiba Sibir ..... or not ...(?).
1) I proposed to Molnar Edit to get around Hungary with my vet for a blood test of an official nature ....
2) I also proposed to take charge of my office (both for the journey, the compensation for my vet who has lost 48 hours to make the trip, rather than in his clinic and then DNA testing)
In vain ....

If I had an agreement, either the breeder or the owner, at present, many questions are already resolved

Both for my breeder, as for many others, who have daughters or son of Galiba and that could, in turn, make checks parentage

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Je tiens à préciser que pour ma part, la seule chose qui m'importait c'était de savoir si Galiba étai bien le père de Sibir ou pas ....

J'ai proposé à Edit Molnar de me déplacer en Hongrie, avec mon vétérinaire pour faire une prise de sang à caractère officiel....
J'ai proposé également de prendre les frais à ma charge (aussi bien pour le trajet, le défraiement de mon vétérinaire qui aurait perdu 48h à faire le voyage, au lieu d'être dans sa clinique et ensuite les tests ADN )

En vain ....

Si j'avais eu un accord, soit de l'éleveuse, soit du propriétaire, à l'heure actuelle, beaucoup de questions seraient déjà résolues
Aussi bien pour mon élevage que pour beaucoup d'autres, qui ont des filles ou fils de Galiba et qui auraient pu, à leur tour, faire des controles de filiation ...