The price of Populairity.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by draggar

I know. I don't think the number of puppies that can be produced is limtied by the sire - he can be bred at any time (given time to replenish his sperm).

Seems like we do not understand each other. I am able to count myself, thanks
I am just interested when a male could be considered "popular sire" in our breed. When he has 5 litters? 10? 15?

[draggar]

Yep, we didn't sorry. I'm a math geek at times.

I also wonder when the "popular" will turn into "damaging to the gene pool".

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by draggar

I also wonder when the "popular" will turn into "damaging to the gene pool".

Yes, this is exactly what interests me. The danger of damaging the gene pool is big, but on the other hand in our breed one can often meet a problem, when interested in some popular stud, who is no longer alive: if there is information about his offsprings, then you take the list of them, remove the ones, who come from dams, that do not suit your interests, then remove the ones without HD, then the ones, that did not attend any shows/bonitation (simply have no breeding rights) and... you have like one or two males from a "very popular stud"... So what numbers are considered "still worth using a stud", and what are "it's enought"?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

So what numbers are considered "still worth using a stud", and what are "it's enought"?

I'm not a breeder, nor a stud owner, but relying on the common sense I'd think it depends on the.... quailty of the stud: his beauty, health and brains.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

I'm not a breeder, nor a stud owner, but relying on the common sense I'd think it depends on the.... quailty of the stud: his beauty, health and brains.

Well, sure, but mostly most popular studs are nice dogs, with good character and good reproducing "skills"

[draggar]

I don't think the issue is overuse of a stud, though. The issues appear when all the tiny little recessive genes start to pop up. With a diverse gene pool these genes are still there but the chances are of having two lines with them get smaller and smaller. But when you line breed and have the same ancestor appear more than once it greatly increases these chances. The more they appear and the closer they are to the puppy will make it even that more likely.

So say one stud sires litters from 25% of the vlcaks out there. While this is a lot (understatement?) if then those puppies are carefully bred to qualifying dogs of the other 75% then you reduce the chances.

"Over" use of a stud is not an issue if done carefully. I mentioned Lance of Fran Jo earlier. He is "blamed" (for the lack of a better term) for what the American line GSD has become. I feel bad for Lance. It wasn't his fault and I'm sure he wasn't bred to a huge percentage of the GSDs un the USA at the time. The issue arrived is when people started to line breed and breed puppies with close ancestors (I'm sure many have him as two grandparents). Then, these dogs got bred to other dogs with Lance in their lines and within a few generations you have hundreds to thousands of dogs who have him several times in their background. This is what needs to be avoided.

So, I think even with one stud affecting 50% of a generation you still have another 50% to work with. While it would cut it close a few generations down, it's still manageable (just not easy).

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Well, sure, but mostly most popular studs are nice dogs, with good character and good reproducing "skills"

Even the best dogs in the world have pesky little recessive genes that can pop up.

[Gypsy Wolf]

Actually our breed does have a "popular sire" - Rep z PS. Show me a pedigree WITHOUT Rep in it...

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

I am just interested when a male could be considered "popular sire" in our breed. When he has 5 litters? 10? 15?

A genetic doctor ones did answer that question on another topic...

For are breed he did say 45 offspring for a male dog, more offspring’s than that would probably do more damage than good, even if the stud was a very good and healthy dog.

Best regards / Mikael

[yukidomari]

So what's the difference between "popular sire" and "foundation sire"? Are all foundation sires by default popular sires, but not all popular sires are foundation sires?