Wolf Dog Education

[Rona]

Originally Posted by draggar

Luna won't go up and be friends with anyone she meets. Not because she is shy but because she won't be instant friends with anyone. If we wanted that we would have gotten a lab.

I never said that reserve indicated in the standard means shyness. A typical wolfdog is not a friend of all, but does not escape in panic at any unkown object or sound.

Originally Posted by draggar

I have *never* called them wolfdogs or wolf-hybrids nor will I ever call them that. This is why I'm calling the UKC club the "United Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club" (UCSVC) - and I was glad to see Marcy's club is the CSVCA (Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club of America). I've stressed that they are vlcaks and not wolfdogs or wolf hybrids (in fact, I stress this on my vlcak sites). There is a bad reputation here in the USA with 'wolf hybrids" (that's a different debate) and I didn't want the vlcak breed to be mixed in with that reputation.

Exactly for these reasons vlcaks owners should all be extremely careful what they write here. I may assure you lots of wolf maniacs read this site and use any trace of argument for promoting crossing CSV with wolves or CSV and wolves with other breeds. If you even innocently compare CSV with wolfdogs (which are uncomparable, because the latter is not a breed!), you give them a platform for argumentation. When I read that selection process is being carried on by wolfdogs makers, I don't know if we should cry or laugh. Those people know nothing about what happened in PS Kennel, how much misery, tragedy and death occurred there. I repeat it from time to time: only most unethical people may attempt to ruin the breed that came into being with such amount of suffering.

Originally Posted by draggar

BUT - there is wolf in the breed. Just like Saarloos and Lupi Italianos and (unofficially) German shepherds (moreso in DDR and Czech working lined dogs). I'm not going to deny that fact. ...... Yes, they are a vlcak and the vlcak is a breed on it's own.

Nobody denies wolf and GSD heritage in vlcaks, but still, as you say yourself they are dogs. I think Saschia explained it clearly enough.

Originally Posted by draggar

Luna is still training to be a service dog for Sara and she did PHENOMINAL in Orlando (even though she worked her rear end off). No weight support and it was mostly "dry" working (working without working). She kept up with us (even after very long days), even on hot days, and did OK with strangers during her breaks. She never freaked out when a server brought food or drinks to our table and managed crowds extremely well, we were very impressed with her. Luna is a great candidate to take over after Zorro.

Luna's had the best background any owner could dream of - good ancestry, caring, conscious breeder, good socialisation/training from the start. No wonder she's developing so well. I keep my fingners crossed for her just as for the whole first 'historical' US litter

Originally Posted by draggar

The temperament issues are with Pollux (who has washed out of the training program but we may give him another try this fall).

Pollux seems to be a great "lesson" for all who read WD. I'm sure many users appreciate that you write about him openly and share you worries and problems. No doubt Pollux has many positive features as any dog does, but his case shows how much heritage, individual personality and (early?) socialisation matter in case of vlcaks and how hard it is to predict when they are still pups what their final character and talents are.
Pollux is really lucky he has got you! I'm sure one day your efforts will bring great results, even if they may vary from Sara's friend's original plans and assumptions.

[Silvester]

Originally posted by Rona:

"If you even innocently compare CSV with wolfdogs (which are uncomparable, because the latter is not a breed!),...."

and

"When I read that selection process is being carried on by wolfdogs makers, I don't know if we should cry or laugh. "

This is exactly right !

And that´s the main thing and the big difference !!

[Rush]

Hey guys, i was reading about your arguing about how wolfish they are, and someone mentioned 12generations from wolfs in breeding.. Is that correct? Can you all type how many gen. your dogs are from wolfs?Just curious.. As my pup is supposed to be closer..

[Rush]

Hey guys, i was reading about your arguing about how wolfish they are, and someone mentioned 12generations from wolfs in breeding.. Is that correct? Can you all type how many gen. your dogs are from wolfs?Just curious.. As my pup is supposed to be closer..

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Rona

Exactly for these reasons vlcaks owners should all be extremely careful what they write here. I may assure you lots of wolf maniacs read this site and use any trace of argument for promoting crossing CSV with wolves or CSV and wolves with other breeds. If you even innocently compare CSV with wolfdogs (which are uncomparable, because the latter is not a breed!), you give them a platform for argumentation. When I read that selection process is being carried on by wolfdogs makers, I don't know if we should cry or laugh. Those people know nothing about what happened in PS Kennel, how much misery, tragedy and death occurred there. I repeat it from time to time: only most unethical people may attempt to ruin the breed that came into being with such amount of suffering.

Isn't that one of the points of this thread considering the title "wolfdog education"? Part of that would include responsible breeding and that includes not mixing vlcaks with hybrids.

Pollux seems to be a great "lesson" for all who read WD. I'm sure many users appreciate that you write about him openly and share you worries and problems. No doubt Pollux has many positive features as any dog does, but his case shows how much heritage, individual personality and (early?) socialisation matter in case of vlcaks and how hard it is to predict when they are still pups what their final character and talents are.
Pollux is really lucky he has got you! I'm sure one day your efforts will bring great results, even if they may vary from Sara's friend's original plans and assumptions.

Pollux has been many lessons.

Originally Posted by Rush

Hey guys, i was reading about your arguing about how wolfish they are, and someone mentioned 12generations from wolfs in breeding.. Is that correct? Can you all type how many gen. your dogs are from wolfs?Just curious.. As my pup is supposed to be closer..

On the pedigree database I can trace Luna back to the project. While there are not many birth dates in the beginning of the project a second generation dog has a birth date in 1960 (May 21, to be exact). Since the start of the project was highly secretive so it may not be exact but it appears that Luna is 9 generations from that vlcak's generation (the one born in 1960).

Also, you don't always need recent wolf genetics to make a dog wolfy (yes, I know, I sound like I'm contradicting myself). We bred a little of Finnish Spitz and still work closely with the local breeder (who is a good friend of my wife's) and they are *extremely* wolfy in temperament even though they are thought to be one of the oldest breeds of dogs (don't forget, all dogs today are descendants of either modern day wolves, a now extinct variety of wolf, or some common ancestor (like humans and apes).

This can also from selective breeding (which is what helps keep a vlcak's lines a vlcak).

[Rush]

Aha, 9. generation is yours?.. That is closer. My pup is supposed to be the 6th generation.
I would like to hear others to tell about it too, thanks

[Rush]

Hm but i didn't understand what you ment with 9 generation from "vlcak" ?
Isnt vlčak as in czech ment to mean "wolfdog"? :-)
If you maybe didn't understand i'm asking how many generations since there were wolfs in breeding until there were no wolfs anymore.. Probably i complicated it now even more

[draggar]

In the USA we're calling them "Czechoslovakian Vlcaks". I think in the UK they call them "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs".

Here in the USA when you say "wolfdog" people automatically assume it's a hybrid (odd though that "wolfhound" is OK?). Hybrids have a very bad reputation due to a ton of misinformation and lack of education. (But I'm sure some of it is earned from poor breeders and owners, too).

Also, Luna is 9 generations from that vlcak, there is one generation past him but I'm not sure if they're GSDs, Carpathians, or vlcaks. Luna is a 9th generation progeny of the project.

Think of this - 9 generations over 50 years, that's about 5 1/2 years in between generations on average. Considering she is a first generation American we can assume these 9 generations aren't "Americanized" breedings (breed many for looks). So I think it is safe to assume that either the breeders in Luna's lineage took their time to research and bred to dogs that produced well. I highly doubt any dogs were first bred at that age so the breeders were able to see what worked and what didn't and by the time Luna's ancestors were born they had it fined tuned pretty well.