Forming a breed club in the US

Gypsy Wolf · 16-01-2011, 04:28

I agree - which is why I have a GSD from Belgium (German Highlines) - because the GSD here are crap, for the most part.
Personally I think it is all EDUCATION - educating the general public... just like AKC did back in the day to make their name synonomous with "quality" - the breed clubs need to educate the public on what to look for in a good breeder - and in a good dog.
Personally I think what we need to do first is get rid of "commercial breeders" (puppy mills) as the biggest detriment to caninedom in our country, but that is another story...
I do think legislating morals/ethics is a slippery slope - and I do agree that most of the dog-buying public are idiots... but I don't know any other way of remedying that aside from banning stupid people from breeding. AKC can't be responsible for idiots - their PARENTS should have raised them to do their homework, no?

GalomyOak · 16-01-2011, 16:03

On a side note, I have now had to produce my AKC papers twice for animal control when a crazy neighbor and then a group of angry hunters (my dogs were carrying on while they were in the forest behind my house) reported me for breeding wolf hybrids - and then coyotes. FCI papers, not enough. At least out here in the country, most people - even dog wardens - have no clue what goes on in the rest of the world, and are always wary of someone trying to pull a fast one on them. The AKC logo at least looks recognizeable, and can be matched to microchips. That's usually enough.

If you follow these same standards, you won't register UKC either - they require even less to breed, no DNA requirements. That will pretty much eliminate the possibility of doing any kind of working, companion or performance event in the USA, unless you go through some other organization (such as DVG or USA, in schutzhund), but those organizations also don't necessarily require health testing. It is possible to register FCI through Puerto Rico, but that still doesn't eliminate, or even really touch upon poor breeding here. I'm sure owners from many other FCI breeds can testify to that. I don't know what kind of problems (maybe none) that might arise when you list the stud dog with a US address if you were to breed to a bitch here, and the owner of the bitch wanted to register the litter AKC. I also don't know how the reciprocity agreement will work with FCI when we go full AKC for dogs who are PR/FCI registered. Of course, it's always a personal decision how anyone proceeds.

I do agree that we (USA, all breeds) need to have higher breeding standards...with regards to health as well as breeding standards - such as bonitations, and mental health ratings as they do in the nordic countries. I think this would help solve other problems too - our shelters would be far less crowded due to the costs of producing a screened litter driving the number of cheap/bad/in-it-only-for-the-money breeders down, and it would force people to become aware of health tests. I think AKC's Breeder of Merit program is a step in the right direction; I wish they would make it mandatory. Essentially it comes back to the classic US political debate of government regulation vs. deregulation. Left vs. right.

We are in a unique position right now. We have only had 2 litters in the US; they aren't being mass produced...yet. I have an idea of where the next 4-5 litters will come from. We also have an incredibly small and tight international breed "circle"...it's generally not too hard to find when puppies are imported here, and because there isn't much information on the breed here, most people importing have a tendency to reach out to owners here, if they can find contact info for them. By maintaining a cohesive group of owners, we will hopefully help to drive collective knowledge about our breed, until such time (150-200 registered dogs) that we can push to be the official parent club, and we do have official breed recognition. I think it would be detrimental to push for seperate groups/clubs - i.e AKC club v. non-AKC club - at this point. AKC is the big fish, it will eventually get it's way if it thinks there is money to be made. The ignorant masses, when buying, will look for what AKC says is "good", which comes about through showing and exhibiting AKC...I'd like to help define this rather than turning away and leaving it solely in the hands of future importers/breeders who might not take the time to educate themselves in the way I try to do for myself, and think their very untypical dogs are beautiful, and worthy of breeding.... "Those people" are out there. I hear from them all the time.

I'd personally rather not fight it, or one another, but work constructively within our own ranks as a breed. This doesn't necessarily mean liking one another or agreeing with one another all the time. That's any organization. But I do think we should, hope we will, stick together, now, and in the future, as breeders and owners. Once established, clubs have the ability to require health testing as part of their coveted futurities and maturities, hopefully the USA/AKC will evolve and do the right thing eventually.

yukidomari · 16-01-2011, 21:09

Yup, it's true that the UKC doesn't require health testing either, but they are less restrictive about what pedigrees it will accept from multiple clubs, even ones that do have strict rules (and ones that might not). In that way they pretty much act simply like a registry like I had thought of the AKC as, one that doesn't actively work to promote specific club agendas. That is what to me is the most distasteful about the AKC, not simply that they don't require certain things.

Like you said, Marcy, there is a tendency here to make good steps merely optional. Like CHIC or Breeder of Merit. I wish those would be mandatory too.

I do not know the answer and wish that things could be better for dogs in general here.. And for anyone pushing for recognition I wish them the best of luck. There are obviously some high ideals and convictions that drive your decision on the matter. I didn't arrive at my decision lightly or without lots of thought, though, so surely one can understand my, and many others', decision on the matter.

In regards to competitive venues.. I will have to ask mutt-owning friends what they use.

Gypsy Wolf · 17-01-2011, 01:01

There used to be "AMBOR" (American Mixed Breed Obedience Registry) but most of the mixed-breed competition venues are few and far-between, not to mention they usually require proof of sterilization. I think thre are only a couple of Agility and Flyball (again, few and far-between) that don'[t care about breed, mix or intact/sterilized... sheesh - the Flyball folks are the ones making all sorts of "height-dog" mixes with jacks, BCs... etc... that end up euthanized in shelters as there are only a limited number of folks who actually do flyball... again, another story...
But I am afraid of the same thing happening here with my Vlcaks, too, Marcy. Luna looks shepherd-y enough that I could probably get away with assuring someone she is a DOG, but Pollux looks exactly like a wolf, and I have no doubt that he would be mistaken for one...
But I do think it's breed clubs and responsible breeders who need to educate the public, and it's up to the consumer to do a little homework too. We can't bottlefeed folks...

16-01-2011, 16:03	#2
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	On a side note, I have now had to produce my AKC papers twice for animal control when a crazy neighbor and then a group of angry hunters (my dogs were carrying on while they were in the forest behind my house) reported me for breeding wolf hybrids - and then coyotes. FCI papers, not enough. At least out here in the country, most people - even dog wardens - have no clue what goes on in the rest of the world, and are always wary of someone trying to pull a fast one on them. The AKC logo at least looks recognizeable, and can be matched to microchips. That's usually enough. If you follow these same standards, you won't register UKC either - they require even less to breed, no DNA requirements. That will pretty much eliminate the possibility of doing any kind of working, companion or performance event in the USA, unless you go through some other organization (such as DVG or USA, in schutzhund), but those organizations also don't necessarily require health testing. It is possible to register FCI through Puerto Rico, but that still doesn't eliminate, or even really touch upon poor breeding here. I'm sure owners from many other FCI breeds can testify to that. I don't know what kind of problems (maybe none) that might arise when you list the stud dog with a US address if you were to breed to a bitch here, and the owner of the bitch wanted to register the litter AKC. I also don't know how the reciprocity agreement will work with FCI when we go full AKC for dogs who are PR/FCI registered. Of course, it's always a personal decision how anyone proceeds. I do agree that we (USA, all breeds) need to have higher breeding standards...with regards to health as well as breeding standards - such as bonitations, and mental health ratings as they do in the nordic countries. I think this would help solve other problems too - our shelters would be far less crowded due to the costs of producing a screened litter driving the number of cheap/bad/in-it-only-for-the-money breeders down, and it would force people to become aware of health tests. I think AKC's Breeder of Merit program is a step in the right direction; I wish they would make it mandatory. Essentially it comes back to the classic US political debate of government regulation vs. deregulation. Left vs. right. We are in a unique position right now. We have only had 2 litters in the US; they aren't being mass produced...yet. I have an idea of where the next 4-5 litters will come from. We also have an incredibly small and tight international breed "circle"...it's generally not too hard to find when puppies are imported here, and because there isn't much information on the breed here, most people importing have a tendency to reach out to owners here, if they can find contact info for them. By maintaining a cohesive group of owners, we will hopefully help to drive collective knowledge about our breed, until such time (150-200 registered dogs) that we can push to be the official parent club, and we do have official breed recognition. I think it would be detrimental to push for seperate groups/clubs - i.e AKC club v. non-AKC club - at this point. AKC is the big fish, it will eventually get it's way if it thinks there is money to be made. The ignorant masses, when buying, will look for what AKC says is "good", which comes about through showing and exhibiting AKC...I'd like to help define this rather than turning away and leaving it solely in the hands of future importers/breeders who might not take the time to educate themselves in the way I try to do for myself, and think their very untypical dogs are beautiful, and worthy of breeding.... "Those people" are out there. I hear from them all the time. I'd personally rather not fight it, or one another, but work constructively within our own ranks as a breed. This doesn't necessarily mean liking one another or agreeing with one another all the time. That's any organization. But I do think we should, hope we will, stick together, now, and in the future, as breeders and owners. Once established, clubs have the ability to require health testing as part of their coveted futurities and maturities, hopefully the USA/AKC will evolve and do the right thing eventually. __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

16-01-2011, 04:28	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	I agree - which is why I have a GSD from Belgium (German Highlines) - because the GSD here are crap, for the most part. Personally I think it is all EDUCATION - educating the general public... just like AKC did back in the day to make their name synonomous with "quality" - the breed clubs need to educate the public on what to look for in a good breeder - and in a good dog. Personally I think what we need to do first is get rid of "commercial breeders" (puppy mills) as the biggest detriment to caninedom in our country, but that is another story... I do think legislating morals/ethics is a slippery slope - and I do agree that most of the dog-buying public are idiots... but I don't know any other way of remedying that aside from banning stupid people from breeding. AKC can't be responsible for idiots - their PARENTS should have raised them to do their homework, no?

16-01-2011, 21:09	#3
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Yup, it's true that the UKC doesn't require health testing either, but they are less restrictive about what pedigrees it will accept from multiple clubs, even ones that do have strict rules (and ones that might not). In that way they pretty much act simply like a registry like I had thought of the AKC as, one that doesn't actively work to promote specific club agendas. That is what to me is the most distasteful about the AKC, not simply that they don't require certain things. Like you said, Marcy, there is a tendency here to make good steps merely optional. Like CHIC or Breeder of Merit. I wish those would be mandatory too. I do not know the answer and wish that things could be better for dogs in general here.. And for anyone pushing for recognition I wish them the best of luck. There are obviously some high ideals and convictions that drive your decision on the matter. I didn't arrive at my decision lightly or without lots of thought, though, so surely one can understand my, and many others', decision on the matter. In regards to competitive venues.. I will have to ask mutt-owning friends what they use.

17-01-2011, 01:01	#4
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	There used to be "AMBOR" (American Mixed Breed Obedience Registry) but most of the mixed-breed competition venues are few and far-between, not to mention they usually require proof of sterilization. I think thre are only a couple of Agility and Flyball (again, few and far-between) that don'[t care about breed, mix or intact/sterilized... sheesh - the Flyball folks are the ones making all sorts of "height-dog" mixes with jacks, BCs... etc... that end up euthanized in shelters as there are only a limited number of folks who actually do flyball... again, another story... But I am afraid of the same thing happening here with my Vlcaks, too, Marcy. Luna looks shepherd-y enough that I could probably get away with assuring someone she is a DOG, but Pollux looks exactly like a wolf, and I have no doubt that he would be mistaken for one... But I do think it's breed clubs and responsible breeders who need to educate the public, and it's up to the consumer to do a little homework too. We can't bottlefeed folks...