4 wolves used in breed development

buidelwolf · 12-11-2010, 01:15

Quote:

And I'd like to know if it is common for wolf to dog pairings to have low fertility especially if it is a male wolf to female dog. For example, in the two litters from Sarik, there was only 1 puppy produced each. Only 2 puppies were produced from Argo's single litter, and only 1 puppy from Lejdy's single litter. The only exception is Brita who had 2 sizable litters.

I assume that the actual litter sizes were much larger than officially documented. Especially in those days it was common practice to select rigorously; keeping the best puppy(s) and "simply" euthanise the rest.For example those who proved to be too shy. I'm not sure about it, but I do think it is likely that's the reason why we only see one or two F1 pups with some of the wolf crossings. Also just because a wolf crossing usually results in large litters (fresh blood). I seem to recall having read about it here on the forum or perhaps in the book by Karl Hartl. Possibly some forum users from the countries of origin can tell more about it?

yukidomari · 12-11-2010, 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by buidelwolf

I assume that the actual litter sizes were much larger than officially documented. Especially in those days it was common practice to select rigorously; keeping the best puppy(s) and "simply" euthanise the rest.

Hmmm.. I wonder if this is the case. It would make sense, certainly. If anyone has read Hartl's book, does it elaborate on this?

Priska182 · 12-11-2010, 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by buidelwolf

I assume that the actual litter sizes were much larger than officially documented. Especially in those days it was common practice to select rigorously; keeping the best puppy(s) and "simply" euthanise the rest.For example those who proved to be too shy. I'm not sure about it, but I do think it is likely that's the reason why we only see one or two F1 pups with the wolf crossings.

I don't think so... Because in 1958 Brita gave birth to 5 pups but only Betsy and Bessy has been reproduce. And in 1960 same thing, 5 pups but only Bikar has been reproduce...
In the Book they don't really talk about it... We only know that some dogs had better capacity to be train and were more predisposed for the project of a new breed...

michaelundinaeichhorn · 12-11-2010, 02:07

The military did the first character-test with 8 weeks and every pup not fulfilling them was put down. This continued till adult age.
Also that Major Rosik writes that they rescued some few dogs after the military decided not to use them any longer means exacly this, they were rescued.

Ina

buidelwolf · 12-11-2010, 02:09

Thanks Ina, I knew you should know. It confirms almost certainly the theory I had. Do you also have information about the other questions?

michaelundinaeichhorn · 12-11-2010, 02:55

No not really, to be honest I never bothered. But having raised wolves and having talked about this during the Mutara times and before with Erik Zimen who did the same bilogical experiment with poodles and dogs, I think they took these wolves because they simply have been available for them .It is not that easy to mate a wolf and a dog that have not been raised together as it is with two dogs. So I think, like with the Mutara´s parents, they just happend to be there in this combinations.

Ina

Priska182 · 12-11-2010, 03:37

Thank you Ina

But... Did its mean all the first hybrides (F1) from Brita who had no Owner (like this one http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1287) as been finally put down???
It's really an interesting thread

Regards,

Hanka · 12-11-2010, 08:14

In army was very strict selection, as Ina wrote here. Only a few best hybrids with best working character was used for next breeding. Other dogs............

It can be problem for people, which will want now create new bloodline. In past was used from 1 litter maybe 2 pups. But now if we will have litter of hybrids, every owner will want use his own hybrid for next breeding. Bad dogs too. It is nothing good for breed.
For breed is bad situation now, when are in breeding used almost all wolfdogs with 4 legs. Nobody select for character. It is very bad especially for our breed with wolf´s blood. cs. wolfdog was created as working breed. And now- look at population.....
So I think some new experiments without selection is nonsens.

Rona · 12-11-2010, 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

So I think some new experiments without selection is nonsens.

I fully agree with Hanka, though neither am I involved in breeding, nor intend to be.

Having read about training methods and selection procedures in PS Kennel I cannot imagine it feasible to reconstruct "military approach" at present and in civilian conditions.
Who today:
1. would provide funding of a few hrs daily standardized training for pups and dogs in one place for several years? (including fees for scientists, costs of health testing, wages for trainers and for dog handlers/leaders from the same area willing to work with dogs most of their time?)

2. would take decisions to eutanize pups/hybrids that would not pass exteremely tough working/tracking tests and... carry out these decisions

? BTW how should the character vs. appearance vs. health dilemma be solved?

In PS dog appearance was not taken under consideration at all, but I'm afraid it would be the main selection criterion today

3. would agree to have his/her beautiful and loveable dog (hybrid?) eutanized (or even just sterelized), only because he/she would not have passed the working/tracking/trailing tests? etc. etc.

4. If having a very detailed breed standard available, the csv community among themselves cannot agree about simple bonitation standards

, and the judges conduct them not always fairly (

), who would be able to decide which dogs/hybrids should remain in breeding and which should be withdrawn?

Is there an internationally charismatic character among CSV judges/lovers/breedres (?) approved by Slovakian Breeding Commitee (responsilble for the breed in FCI), who could be granted the role of "CSV God"? Would all respect and trust him (them?) enough as not to question his/their decisions? Mutaragate should be a clear warning how an "amateur" experiment may end in not well prepared, widely approved and carried out fairly, openly and under scientific supervision.

5. And last but not least: adding fresh wolf blood into the CSV breed would mean that in some countries csv would be authomatically banned and in some others would have less chance to be legalized.

Can the breed afford such step at the present stage of development?

CDaniela · 12-11-2010, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

For breed is bad situation now, when are in breeding used almost all wolfdogs with 4 legs. Nobody select for character. It is very bad especially for our breed with wolf´s blood. cs. wolfdog was created as working breed. And now- look at population.....
So I think some new experiments without selection is nonsens.

It is unfortunately true ....

Sona_Bognarova · 24-11-2010, 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

It is not that easy to mate a wolf and a dog that have not been raised together as it is with two dogs. So I think, like with the Mutara´s parents, they just happend to be there in this combinations.

Ina

Exactly, it is not that easy to mate a wolf and a dog, so I tend to believe that lovely story how they let Brita the wolf choose her partner herself, from many GSD studs there and that it was the only one not scared of her but behaving like a dominant male! It is just a story though....

Another fact is that the primary reason for crossbreeding wolf and GSD at the beginning was the improvement of health and endurance of working dogs, especially GSD, creating the new breed came second...

12-11-2010, 02:09	#5
buidelwolf senior member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 163	Thanks Ina, I knew you should know. It confirms almost certainly the theory I had. Do you also have information about the other questions? Last edited by buidelwolf; 12-11-2010 at 02:24.

12-11-2010, 03:37	#7
Priska182 Canadian Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Montréal Posts: 423	Thank you Ina But... Did its mean all the first hybrides (F1) from Brita who had no Owner (like this one http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1287) as been finally put down??? It's really an interesting thread Regards, __________________ Stéphanie www.inugami.ca

12-11-2010, 02:07	#4
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	The military did the first character-test with 8 weeks and every pup not fulfilling them was put down. This continued till adult age. Also that Major Rosik writes that they rescued some few dogs after the military decided not to use them any longer means exacly this, they were rescued. Ina

12-11-2010, 02:55	#6
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	No not really, to be honest I never bothered. But having raised wolves and having talked about this during the Mutara times and before with Erik Zimen who did the same bilogical experiment with poodles and dogs, I think they took these wolves because they simply have been available for them .It is not that easy to mate a wolf and a dog that have not been raised together as it is with two dogs. So I think, like with the Mutara´s parents, they just happend to be there in this combinations. Ina

12-11-2010, 08:14	#8
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	In army was very strict selection, as Ina wrote here. Only a few best hybrids with best working character was used for next breeding. Other dogs............ It can be problem for people, which will want now create new bloodline. In past was used from 1 litter maybe 2 pups. But now if we will have litter of hybrids, every owner will want use his own hybrid for next breeding. Bad dogs too. It is nothing good for breed. For breed is bad situation now, when are in breeding used almost all wolfdogs with 4 legs. Nobody select for character. It is very bad especially for our breed with wolf´s blood. cs. wolfdog was created as working breed. And now- look at population..... So I think some new experiments without selection is nonsens.