electrical collars

Gypsy Wolf · 04-10-2010, 23:42

No tool is inherently bad. Misuse and abusing a dog with a tool is. A lot of countries in Europe make certain tools illegal - tools that used in the right hands, are humane and effective, yet other tools that are truly more damaging (such as a "choke" or "slip" collar) are just fine... but I digress.
What you need is a GOOD BEHAVIORIST and dog trainer (preferably in one person!) to assess why the dog is behaving a certain way (many bitches going in to their first heat become intolerant of other bitches in "their" territory) and how to address is WITHOUT making it WORSE.
Often using "punishment" to try to address aggressive behavior (especially if it is an instinctive behavior) will only make it escalate.
Sounds to me that she is a little resource-aggressive - a common issue, but needs to be addressed, and I would NEVER have her off-lead (as she cannot make an appropriate choice) and I would have her muzzled to prevent a serious bite. If she's already torn clothing and gone after people, you have a problem that can end up with someone in the hospital...
You need to learn dog language so you can "see" what she is telling you in order to prevent these problems from happening! Rather than cleaning up the mess, make sure it doesn't happen in the first place!
All the best...

Enid Black · 05-10-2010, 08:43

You're right, Lunas mom, a tool is only a tool. But sincerely, as you say, I prefer trying to understand why the dog behaves in a certain way and then look for the solution than treating the symptom. And that's what electrical collar is needed for: it treats a symptom but does not solve the cause. And it leaves the owner of the pet with a doubt "will my dog behave well or not?".

Czertice · 22-10-2010, 08:50

We used electrical collar to tweak Raksha's coming when called.
Sometimes when the distance from the caller is too big and the object she wants to see is too desirable, she looks back at you, you can see her thinking pros and cons, and then she decides not to obey.
That's the moment when we used the collar: when she hears us clearly, knows very well the order, knows what we want from her - but also knows we are incapable to stop her at that moment and therefore decides it's safe to disobey.
We only had to use it several times and it worked like a charm.

We have a saying in Czech: When someone wants to beat up a dog, he will find a stick/club no matter what. It fits the discussion - a tool is always a tool, you can hurt your dog even with bare hands, if you want to. The whole thing depends on your judgement.

I believe that instead of demonizing electric collars, it would be better to tell people what these collars can do, and what these collars cannot do. Then we wouldn't have to see people using electric collars when trying to teach dog how to sit, or pressing the sting button whenever they are angry.

Gypsy Wolf · 23-10-2010, 00:19

As I have said before ~ there are no bad "tools" just bad use of those tools. Electric collars have their place - though I do not use them on a regular basis, there have been dogs I have trained that have NEEDED such a tool. Dogs that are so "collar-" or "leash-wise" that they need to know that even off-lead their human has control.
Vlcaks are a breed that I can see are smart enough to know whether their handler can correct them or not. And I am sorry Clicker People, but sometimes even the highest-value food reward is NOT as attractive as doing the naughty thing they want to do.
And I am sorry - if I need to use an electric collar to make sure my vlcak doesn't dash out into traffic - I would rather use that than see my dog hit by a car.

yukidomari · 23-10-2010, 07:59

Luna's mom - I'm sure you're aware but clicker training isn't just about high value food, although certainly often it is. It can be used with anything from toys, to the sleeve, to other behavior the dog finds self-rewarding.

And personally to prevent my dog from running out into the streets, I use a leash. Yes, that's a tool, but I also know that an electric stim from a e-collar won't stop some dogs from chasing prey into the streets, but a leash will.

To each his own.. I have used an e-collar before and I think for the regular person, you don't need training based on aversives to get what you want in a regular, everyday arsenal of easy, normal commands like "sit" "stay" "down" or "heel".

Like in this scenario as described by the original poster. ...I kind of don't understand why the OP chose to use an e-collar on her dog that chased other animals and bit people, instead of using a leash with muzzle, perhaps. It doesn't seem to me that a dog with a bite history would be easily broken of such behavior just simply with electric stim, and if so, if that would actually be right to now call the dog "safe in public" just because it has an e-collar on. I certainly wouldn't feel safe.

(Never mind, I just now read your earlier post and it seems like we are actually agreeing.. )

Of course, though, I know of situations where you might use an electric stim.. for example, on a hunting dog that needs to be off leash, or, rattlesnake avoidance training.

And I felt like I had to add: OP said that for an inexperienced owner, the e-collar was a good solution vs a professional trainer. I think this is the furthest from the truth you can get... :S

If a person uses an e-collar, said person should be MORE in tune with a dog and more experienced with different types of training and dog behavior than the average person. You can't mess up a dog with messed up positive reinforcement as badly as you can mess up a dog with messed up e-collar training!!

tupacs2legs · 23-10-2010, 15:14

... here in England e collars are banned in Wales.... hopefully in the rest of the country soon.

..... a leash and muzzle combined with knowledgeable training should all that is required imo (for a pet dog)

e collars should not be available to the general public that have little understanding of training and behaviour...they are seen as a quick 'fix' that often masks the problem and does not solve it.

your dog is a 'teenager' do u remember what it was like to be one of them? testing,challenging, seeing how far you could push

Enid Black · 26-10-2010, 11:37

errata corrige

e collars are not banned in Italy. It is just banned their abuse when causing ill-treatment to dogs...

just for love of truth XD...

I still don't like 'em...

05-10-2010, 08:43	#2
Enid Black Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Arezzo Posts: 1,142	You're right, Lunas mom, a tool is only a tool. But sincerely, as you say, I prefer trying to understand why the dog behaves in a certain way and then look for the solution than treating the symptom. And that's what electrical collar is needed for: it treats a symptom but does not solve the cause. And it leaves the owner of the pet with a doubt "will my dog behave well or not?". __________________ Enid Black, Gianni, Spettro and Kira

22-10-2010, 08:50	#3
Czertice Rakša Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Praha Posts: 292	We used electrical collar to tweak Raksha's coming when called. Sometimes when the distance from the caller is too big and the object she wants to see is too desirable, she looks back at you, you can see her thinking pros and cons, and then she decides not to obey. That's the moment when we used the collar: when she hears us clearly, knows very well the order, knows what we want from her - but also knows we are incapable to stop her at that moment and therefore decides it's safe to disobey. We only had to use it several times and it worked like a charm. We have a saying in Czech: When someone wants to beat up a dog, he will find a stick/club no matter what. It fits the discussion - a tool is always a tool, you can hurt your dog even with bare hands, if you want to. The whole thing depends on your judgement. I believe that instead of demonizing electric collars, it would be better to tell people what these collars can do, and what these collars cannot do. Then we wouldn't have to see people using electric collars when trying to teach dog how to sit, or pressing the sting button whenever they are angry. __________________

23-10-2010, 07:59	#5
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Luna's mom - I'm sure you're aware but clicker training isn't just about high value food, although certainly often it is. It can be used with anything from toys, to the sleeve, to other behavior the dog finds self-rewarding. And personally to prevent my dog from running out into the streets, I use a leash. Yes, that's a tool, but I also know that an electric stim from a e-collar won't stop some dogs from chasing prey into the streets, but a leash will. To each his own.. I have used an e-collar before and I think for the regular person, you don't need training based on aversives to get what you want in a regular, everyday arsenal of easy, normal commands like "sit" "stay" "down" or "heel". Like in this scenario as described by the original poster. ...I kind of don't understand why the OP chose to use an e-collar on her dog that chased other animals and bit people, instead of using a leash with muzzle, perhaps. It doesn't seem to me that a dog with a bite history would be easily broken of such behavior just simply with electric stim, and if so, if that would actually be right to now call the dog "safe in public" just because it has an e-collar on. I certainly wouldn't feel safe. (Never mind, I just now read your earlier post and it seems like we are actually agreeing.. ) Of course, though, I know of situations where you might use an electric stim.. for example, on a hunting dog that needs to be off leash, or, rattlesnake avoidance training. And I felt like I had to add: OP said that for an inexperienced owner, the e-collar was a good solution vs a professional trainer. I think this is the furthest from the truth you can get... :S If a person uses an e-collar, said person should be MORE in tune with a dog and more experienced with different types of training and dog behavior than the average person. You can't mess up a dog with messed up positive reinforcement as badly as you can mess up a dog with messed up e-collar training!! Last edited by yukidomari; 23-10-2010 at 08:14.

26-10-2010, 11:37	#7
Enid Black Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Arezzo Posts: 1,142	errata corrige e collars are not banned in Italy. It is just banned their abuse when causing ill-treatment to dogs... just for love of truth XD... I still don't like 'em... __________________ Enid Black, Gianni, Spettro and Kira

04-10-2010, 23:42	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	No tool is inherently bad. Misuse and abusing a dog with a tool is. A lot of countries in Europe make certain tools illegal - tools that used in the right hands, are humane and effective, yet other tools that are truly more damaging (such as a "choke" or "slip" collar) are just fine... but I digress. What you need is a GOOD BEHAVIORIST and dog trainer (preferably in one person!) to assess why the dog is behaving a certain way (many bitches going in to their first heat become intolerant of other bitches in "their" territory) and how to address is WITHOUT making it WORSE. Often using "punishment" to try to address aggressive behavior (especially if it is an instinctive behavior) will only make it escalate. Sounds to me that she is a little resource-aggressive - a common issue, but needs to be addressed, and I would NEVER have her off-lead (as she cannot make an appropriate choice) and I would have her muzzled to prevent a serious bite. If she's already torn clothing and gone after people, you have a problem that can end up with someone in the hospital... You need to learn dog language so you can "see" what she is telling you in order to prevent these problems from happening! Rather than cleaning up the mess, make sure it doesn't happen in the first place! All the best...

23-10-2010, 00:19	#4
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	As I have said before ~ there are no bad "tools" just bad use of those tools. Electric collars have their place - though I do not use them on a regular basis, there have been dogs I have trained that have NEEDED such a tool. Dogs that are so "collar-" or "leash-wise" that they need to know that even off-lead their human has control. Vlcaks are a breed that I can see are smart enough to know whether their handler can correct them or not. And I am sorry Clicker People, but sometimes even the highest-value food reward is NOT as attractive as doing the naughty thing they want to do. And I am sorry - if I need to use an electric collar to make sure my vlcak doesn't dash out into traffic - I would rather use that than see my dog hit by a car.

23-10-2010, 15:14	#6
tupacs2legs rookie Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: london Posts: 320	... here in England e collars are banned in Wales.... hopefully in the rest of the country soon. ..... a leash and muzzle combined with knowledgeable training should all that is required imo (for a pet dog) e collars should not be available to the general public that have little understanding of training and behaviour...they are seen as a quick 'fix' that often masks the problem and does not solve it. your dog is a 'teenager' do u remember what it was like to be one of them? testing,challenging, seeing how far you could push