Can of Worms: Update on Mutara dogs?

Pavel · 31-05-2010, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by sciamalaia

My opinion is that it is a war not so easy to fight, i've seen a Q-Mutara many times, people (common people, they are the market, they don't study four lines of pedigree's generation) likes him and he is not even the best of the litter.. when they will be use in breeding they will have no problem to sell the puppies.

But this peopel dont understand, whats mean the word "breeding". We dot produce the puppies for sale only !!! Mutara is just from begin a illegal action, without club approvement, without any project, targets or any descriptions, why was produced. Any texts about Mutara from side people, which was active in this illegal action, was create first after I publish, that this hybrids exists. Simply say, Mutara cant bring to CsW race anything. Mother is white canadian wolf and father is a GSD (?) without pedigree, thats mea unknown origin and of course with unknown faults and illness. From character side is nothing too. Father is a excellent trace dog (one of the best in CZ), but tracing is the really last character sign, which is necessary to improve by today CsW generations.

Gypsy Wolf · 31-05-2010, 15:59

So who, exactly, registers these Mutara dogs? If there is no where to register them, then it isn't so good to produce them - people who buy dogs want papers, so if there are no official papers, there is no money.

Mikael · 31-05-2010, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

So who, exactly, registers these Mutara dogs? If there is no where to register them, then it isn't so good to produce them - people who buy dogs want papers, so if there are no official papers, there is no money.

Read the quote in post #3 again

ENCI = Ente Nazionale della Cinofilia Italiana = Italian Kennel Club.

I´m not from Italy so please correct me if I´m wrong

Best regards / Mikael

Quote:

REASON: There is no advertising and soon the future puppy buyers will be warned not to buy any puppies from this lines and kennels because the litter S-Passo del Lupo, Dark and Mutaras were officialy BANNED by the Slovak Club and recognized as NON-BREEDS!!!!

Quote:

Because it is not possible to count with the national kennel clubs and for example ENCI seems nothing wrong in registering mutts as purebreed dogs it was needed to make additional steps and protect the CzW genepool.

Gypsy Wolf · 01-06-2010, 02:05

Well here in the United States there are more registries than just the AKC (American Kennel Club) - for instance, there is "APRI" (American Pet Registry Incorporated) they would register mutts - they don't care, as long as there is money involved. But real dog people know that APRI is ridiculous.
APRI would not be a registry recognized or respected by any other kennel club.
Is ENCI a respected kennel club? Are the dogs able to be registered in countries other than Italy? If it all just stays in Italy then it's not a big deal...

GalomyOak · 01-06-2010, 02:43

My understanding...

The FCI is different from the US in the fact that it represents so many countries. Each country is represented by it's own kennel club (in Italy's case, the ENCI - my Bongo is registered through this), with it's own governance, but affiliated with the FCI. Each breed within the FCI has a national "parent" club (our breed's parent club is Slovakia) that steers development of the breed.

Loopholes within each registry can cause problems for breeds, especially when it comes to reciprocity. AKC also has the loophole where, as a parent breed club, we could allow dogs with no registration papers into the studbook - after 3 generations, these mutts could have full registration (which could/would (?) have to be recognized by the FCI - I think - this is where I get confused). It has a place in some breeds - for instance, breeds originating in parts of remote Africa, where breeds really are bred for work and type - but might not have registration papers. Or in the case of rare breeds such as the Chinook which needed to expand it's genepool - but it was a monitored, well-planned club effort. This new blood can then be added into existing/smaller populations. But clearly, our breed has a closed genepool for the time being - any ethical national parent club should adhere to this unless the Slovakian breed club decides otherwise.

Gypsy Wolf · 01-06-2010, 19:58

Well if FCI adheres to parent country clubs, and mutaras are not allowed according to CZ and SK, than FCI should reject the ENCI pedigrees, right?
I know there is a huge issue occurring in American Dalmatians - they started a "back-cross" project 35 years ago, bringing in an English Pointer to correct the genes that make 100% of "purebred" Dals have high uric acid. Now, so many generations later, the backcross offspring are 99.99% Dalmatian, but the Dal "ourists" would rather have the high uric acid defect, rather than allowing the backcross Dals full registration as they are "mutts" according to purists.
In the Dal situation, they at least used an English Pointer that was well-bred, papered and closest to the Dal phenotype so as not to bring in any "unknowns"... where as the Mutara dogs brought in a GSD mix with no known parentage as well as a Canadian wolf which is not even close to the carpathian wolf subspecies...
So here in the U.S. I would propose that we make sure AKC does not register mutaras, per our parent club's rules, adhering to what the parent countries suggest.
My fear are those loopholes that potentially can muddy the waters...

Hanka · 01-06-2010, 20:03

Hi Lunas mom. After czech club conferention (14 days later) I will write more info about breeding of Mutaras and all their offsprings here in Czech republic. I hope, they will not in Czech for ever. I hope candidats on conferention will vote good thing. Cross fingers

.

01-06-2010, 02:43	#5
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	My understanding... The FCI is different from the US in the fact that it represents so many countries. Each country is represented by it's own kennel club (in Italy's case, the ENCI - my Bongo is registered through this), with it's own governance, but affiliated with the FCI. Each breed within the FCI has a national "parent" club (our breed's parent club is Slovakia) that steers development of the breed. Loopholes within each registry can cause problems for breeds, especially when it comes to reciprocity. AKC also has the loophole where, as a parent breed club, we could allow dogs with no registration papers into the studbook - after 3 generations, these mutts could have full registration (which could/would (?) have to be recognized by the FCI - I think - this is where I get confused). It has a place in some breeds - for instance, breeds originating in parts of remote Africa, where breeds really are bred for work and type - but might not have registration papers. Or in the case of rare breeds such as the Chinook which needed to expand it's genepool - but it was a monitored, well-planned club effort. This new blood can then be added into existing/smaller populations. But clearly, our breed has a closed genepool for the time being - any ethical national parent club should adhere to this unless the Slovakian breed club decides otherwise. __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

31-05-2010, 15:59	#2
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	So who, exactly, registers these Mutara dogs? If there is no where to register them, then it isn't so good to produce them - people who buy dogs want papers, so if there are no official papers, there is no money.

01-06-2010, 02:05	#4
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Well here in the United States there are more registries than just the AKC (American Kennel Club) - for instance, there is "APRI" (American Pet Registry Incorporated) they would register mutts - they don't care, as long as there is money involved. But real dog people know that APRI is ridiculous. APRI would not be a registry recognized or respected by any other kennel club. Is ENCI a respected kennel club? Are the dogs able to be registered in countries other than Italy? If it all just stays in Italy then it's not a big deal...

01-06-2010, 19:58	#6
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Well if FCI adheres to parent country clubs, and mutaras are not allowed according to CZ and SK, than FCI should reject the ENCI pedigrees, right? I know there is a huge issue occurring in American Dalmatians - they started a "back-cross" project 35 years ago, bringing in an English Pointer to correct the genes that make 100% of "purebred" Dals have high uric acid. Now, so many generations later, the backcross offspring are 99.99% Dalmatian, but the Dal "ourists" would rather have the high uric acid defect, rather than allowing the backcross Dals full registration as they are "mutts" according to purists. In the Dal situation, they at least used an English Pointer that was well-bred, papered and closest to the Dal phenotype so as not to bring in any "unknowns"... where as the Mutara dogs brought in a GSD mix with no known parentage as well as a Canadian wolf which is not even close to the carpathian wolf subspecies... So here in the U.S. I would propose that we make sure AKC does not register mutaras, per our parent club's rules, adhering to what the parent countries suggest. My fear are those loopholes that potentially can muddy the waters...

01-06-2010, 20:03	#7
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Hi Lunas mom. After czech club conferention (14 days later) I will write more info about breeding of Mutaras and all their offsprings here in Czech republic. I hope, they will not in Czech for ever. I hope candidats on conferention will vote good thing. Cross fingers .