Feeding for Ultimate Health...

Gypsy Wolf · 23-04-2010, 04:10

Here's a Veterinarian who thinks it's better for your dog to eat poo and dead carcasses than a raw diet...
<shrug>
Not that I am particularly impressed by his opinion, as I think a healthy immune system and the stomach's hydrochloric acid should be sufficient to the task, but...
http://www.therapydogs.org/documents...Eat%20Poop.pdf

yukidomari · 23-04-2010, 04:13

That's an article, but it cites no actual study. Yeah, dogs shed Salmonella et al in their feces on raw, but so do dogs on kibble.
BTW many of those links I posted are from one of those large food companies - Eukanuba, to be exact.

Gypsy Wolf · 23-04-2010, 04:24

I do also remember reading that there certainly *IS* such thing as too much protein... just anecdotally, as a Vet Tech (I'll see if I can find any articles on it), high protein was always taken into account when it came to renal issues and Pano, among other things... Interestingly, a few years ago, there was quite a difference of opinion in "Senior" diet recipes - some insisted on lower protein due to it's affect on aging kidneys, stone formation, etc. - particularly in breeds prone to it like Dalmatians, where others promoted the idea of higher protein as older dogs have a tougher time assimilating protein (and their muscles get all stringy)...
And in the case of Dalmatians, for instance, Dal folks insist on low Protein diets as 100% of Dals have a uric acid production defect and protein in the diet ends up as sludge and then stones in the bladder. The lower the protein, the better, and most Dal folks I know prefer NON-ANIMAL protein sources, saying that in their experience, vegetarian diets seem to be better when it comes to the Uric Acid issue....
As an aside, the Dal folks DID introduce an English Pointer into select lines about 35 years ago (the Back Cross project) to introduce normal uric acid production genetics - they are not "recognized" by AKC even though they are 99.99% pure Dalmatian at this point - the purists consider them "mixes"... even though they are the only way to bring in the genetics to end the uric acid defect... talk about shooting yourself in the foot...

yukidomari · 23-04-2010, 04:30

Re: renal failure & seniors - that was addressed in the UPenn article I posted already.

And Dals.. again, it's not protein level, but rather it's purines. Just that purines are extremely high in things like organ meats, commonly in high protein diets. So, no, our Dal friends cannot feed organs regularly as other raw feeders do. (Dal raw feeders are heavy on the white meat - low in purines - and substitute organs with supplemental vegetable shakes).

Dal breeders who don't believe in the backcross project.. sad... we know of the backcross project & friends with Dals have met dogs out of the backcross project and can't tell that they are mixed at all.

Gypsy Wolf · 23-04-2010, 04:40

Again, my own anecdotal experience really does influence me more than a study. You know that old saying "should I believe you or my lying eyes?"...
I have a dog friend with both "pure" and BC Dals - no difference, well, actually, I think the BC Dals she has have better markings, technically, than the "pure" ones...
That's one thing about having a limited genepool that is worrisome. Nutrition aside, our basic building blocks are the genetics.
And as far as food goes, really - I use premium foods. I know lots of folks who have dogs with food allergies, intolerances, etc...
Not that I recommend brands like Ol' Roy, but I don't like to see food allergies/intolerances as "acceptable." A dog really should be able to eat anything. "Soy" is not a four-letter word! I don't like the idea of breeding dogs with such issues - immune-related, no doubt.
There are some recipes I wouldn't feed my dogs, but I also would be very wary of keeping dogs that need specialized diets in the gene pool. No better than a hothouse flower!
Certainly a wild dog/wolf with a food allergy would be weeded out of the gene pool...

yukidomari · 23-04-2010, 04:52

Reasonable opinion.. but my take on it is that dogs should be able to eat everything biologically appropriate. To me, it's odd when a dog is allergic or sensitive or a meat-based protein.

But it is not in a dog to eat soy or corn syrup or corn. Just like it is not in us to eat grass, though cows can do it fine with their multiple stomach. In fact it's not even really in humans to eat corn (eat a lot of corn on the cobs and you'll see why..

)

Cellulose as in plant matter is just not something that a dog's comparatively short digestive track is equipped to break down. Their teeth don't lend pre-digestion grinding. Our English Mastiff friend fed her dog a whole strawberry once and no joke, it popped out the other side pretty much undigested

But, no, seriously raw asides, I do think that you are a reasonable person. When you have time, give the articles a read over, .. they apply to kibble too (we fed kibble and we aren't against it.. it is just like cereal to us and we do sometimes feed it still). Even if you think that all of these things are opinions and can be written to reflect whatever viewpoint they believe in..

Silvester · 23-04-2010, 08:49

Originally posted by yukidomari :

"But it is not in a dog to eat soy or corn syrup or corn. Just like it is not in us to eat grass, though cows can do it fine with their multiple stomach. In fact it's not even really in humans to eat corn (eat a lot of corn on the cobs and you'll see why..

)"

This is completely correct !

I agree also to yuki´s other postings - of course meaty bones and raw food is better than artifical man- made kibbles...

It can not really be a question, i think.

May be only for sick dogs, i mean sick by desease as well as sick by genetics , you can have a real reason to feed an artifical food .

23-04-2010, 04:13	#2
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	That's an article, but it cites no actual study. Yeah, dogs shed Salmonella et al in their feces on raw, but so do dogs on kibble. BTW many of those links I posted are from one of those large food companies - Eukanuba, to be exact. Last edited by yukidomari; 23-04-2010 at 04:24.

23-04-2010, 04:10	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Here's a Veterinarian who thinks it's better for your dog to eat poo and dead carcasses than a raw diet... <shrug> Not that I am particularly impressed by his opinion, as I think a healthy immune system and the stomach's hydrochloric acid should be sufficient to the task, but... http://www.therapydogs.org/documents...Eat%20Poop.pdf

23-04-2010, 04:24	#3
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	I do also remember reading that there certainly IS such thing as too much protein... just anecdotally, as a Vet Tech (I'll see if I can find any articles on it), high protein was always taken into account when it came to renal issues and Pano, among other things... Interestingly, a few years ago, there was quite a difference of opinion in "Senior" diet recipes - some insisted on lower protein due to it's affect on aging kidneys, stone formation, etc. - particularly in breeds prone to it like Dalmatians, where others promoted the idea of higher protein as older dogs have a tougher time assimilating protein (and their muscles get all stringy)... And in the case of Dalmatians, for instance, Dal folks insist on low Protein diets as 100% of Dals have a uric acid production defect and protein in the diet ends up as sludge and then stones in the bladder. The lower the protein, the better, and most Dal folks I know prefer NON-ANIMAL protein sources, saying that in their experience, vegetarian diets seem to be better when it comes to the Uric Acid issue.... As an aside, the Dal folks DID introduce an English Pointer into select lines about 35 years ago (the Back Cross project) to introduce normal uric acid production genetics - they are not "recognized" by AKC even though they are 99.99% pure Dalmatian at this point - the purists consider them "mixes"... even though they are the only way to bring in the genetics to end the uric acid defect... talk about shooting yourself in the foot...

23-04-2010, 04:30	#4
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Re: renal failure & seniors - that was addressed in the UPenn article I posted already. And Dals.. again, it's not protein level, but rather it's purines. Just that purines are extremely high in things like organ meats, commonly in high protein diets. So, no, our Dal friends cannot feed organs regularly as other raw feeders do. (Dal raw feeders are heavy on the white meat - low in purines - and substitute organs with supplemental vegetable shakes). Dal breeders who don't believe in the backcross project.. sad... we know of the backcross project & friends with Dals have met dogs out of the backcross project and can't tell that they are mixed at all.

23-04-2010, 04:40	#5
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Again, my own anecdotal experience really does influence me more than a study. You know that old saying "should I believe you or my lying eyes?"... I have a dog friend with both "pure" and BC Dals - no difference, well, actually, I think the BC Dals she has have better markings, technically, than the "pure" ones... That's one thing about having a limited genepool that is worrisome. Nutrition aside, our basic building blocks are the genetics. And as far as food goes, really - I use premium foods. I know lots of folks who have dogs with food allergies, intolerances, etc... Not that I recommend brands like Ol' Roy, but I don't like to see food allergies/intolerances as "acceptable." A dog really should be able to eat anything. "Soy" is not a four-letter word! I don't like the idea of breeding dogs with such issues - immune-related, no doubt. There are some recipes I wouldn't feed my dogs, but I also would be very wary of keeping dogs that need specialized diets in the gene pool. No better than a hothouse flower! Certainly a wild dog/wolf with a food allergy would be weeded out of the gene pool...

23-04-2010, 04:52	#6
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Reasonable opinion.. but my take on it is that dogs should be able to eat everything biologically appropriate. To me, it's odd when a dog is allergic or sensitive or a meat-based protein. But it is not in a dog to eat soy or corn syrup or corn. Just like it is not in us to eat grass, though cows can do it fine with their multiple stomach. In fact it's not even really in humans to eat corn (eat a lot of corn on the cobs and you'll see why.. ) Cellulose as in plant matter is just not something that a dog's comparatively short digestive track is equipped to break down. Their teeth don't lend pre-digestion grinding. Our English Mastiff friend fed her dog a whole strawberry once and no joke, it popped out the other side pretty much undigested But, no, seriously raw asides, I do think that you are a reasonable person. When you have time, give the articles a read over, .. they apply to kibble too (we fed kibble and we aren't against it.. it is just like cereal to us and we do sometimes feed it still). Even if you think that all of these things are opinions and can be written to reflect whatever viewpoint they believe in..

23-04-2010, 08:49	#7
Silvester Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 369	Originally posted by yukidomari : "But it is not in a dog to eat soy or corn syrup or corn. Just like it is not in us to eat grass, though cows can do it fine with their multiple stomach. In fact it's not even really in humans to eat corn (eat a lot of corn on the cobs and you'll see why.. )" This is completely correct ! I agree also to yuki´s other postings - of course meaty bones and raw food is better than artifical man- made kibbles... It can not really be a question, i think. May be only for sick dogs, i mean sick by desease as well as sick by genetics , you can have a real reason to feed an artifical food .