Forming a breed club in the US

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Form following function in almost all working breeds would probably be best with an open stud book, then, ideally.

Do you means by open stud book, accept mates with other breeds?

And, above that, standards are only written about physical characteristics. Usage of a dog has always been left up to interpretation... original use is a good start, but then again, usage evolves.

The standars should have the behaviour/temperament description, also as a historical brief, so, the behaviour are not up to the interpretation, maybe the usage can be mistaken, but nothing that a little bit more of study about the breed would not solve.

Originally Posted by FCI standard of the breed

BRIEF HISTORICAL SUMMARY:
In the year 1955 a biological experiment took place in the CSSR of that time, namely, the crossing of a German Shepherd Dog with a Carpathian wolf. The experiment established that the progeny of the mating of male dog to female wolf as well as that of male wolf to female dog, could be reared. The overwhelming majority of the products of these matings possessed the genetic requirements for continuation of breeding. In the year 1965, after the ending of the experiment, a plan for the breeding of this new breed was worked out. This was to combine the usable qualities of the wolf with the favourable qualities of the dog. In the year 1982, the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, through the general committee of the breeder's associations of the CSSR of that time, was recognized as a national breed

BEHAVIOUR-TEMPERAMENT:
Lively, active, tough, obedient with quick reactions, fearless and courageous. Shows tremendous loyalty towards his master. Resistant to weather conditions. Versatile in his uses.

[draggar]

(I had several quotes but decided to just post since many of them would overlap and editing / re-editing would be a real pain!).

Sadly, dogs that were bred to work split into two factions (for the lack of a better term) - the show people and the working people. Sadly, the working dogs usually don't do well in the show ring because they don't look as nice as the show dogs. As far as I know every breed was engineered for a purpose, to do a job, and none of their jobs was to look nice - so why the stress on their physical look? While I agree structure is very important (hips, build, stamina, etc..) these points are quite often overlooked in the AKC show ring and the same goes with temperament. I've seen very few dogs that do well in the working world and the show world.

As for interpretation - yes, there is room for some interpretation but some aspects there isn't. Take GSDs for example, every standard states "Must show confidence". Not can, not may, not should, MUST. In my book, "must" means 100% of the dogs should have that quality. Sadly, to often I see GSDs in the AKC show ring that are skittish, afraid of other dogs, afraid of the judge, the handler, and even trying their hardest to avoid everything when in the ring - where is the confidence in that? If the standard says "MUST show confidence" then why are these dogs being rewarded? If it's a chance of "well, it's the least bad dog in there" - the judges CAN with hold ribbons - I've seen it before.

"Pet" owned GSDs. Yes, the vast majority of dog owners in the USA want a pet but I think most of them have the wrong dog. If you want a dog that is going to be friends with everyone, love the family, and love strangers then don't get a GSD, get a lab (like Dug in the movie Up). If you really wanted a car that had great gas mileage - would you get an SUV? Nope, you'd get a compact or a hybrid. The same with a GSD - it is a WORKING breed. The breed is meant for herding (with protection implied in that job). Unless you wanted a guardian or a partner, why get a GSD? People looking for a pet need to research breeds and decide on what breed to get before getting the dog.

As Luna's mom said, in every litter there will be dogs that won't stand up to the quality of the breed (it is unavoidable) and yes, those should be adopted out as pets, but they should also have spay / neuter clauses in their contracts (where it is legal) so their genes are not put back into the gene pool.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by draggar

As far as I know every breed was engineered for a purpose, to do a job, and none of their jobs was to look nice - so why the stress on their physical look?

I don't think that for the most part the art of purebred dogs can simply be put into 'purpose only'. There are a few dogs that are widely purpose bred - see racing greyhounds and Alaskan Huskies.. I've seen true racing greyhounds and those dogs you would hardly even recognize as a greyhound. Alaskan Huskies aren't considered a breed.. people breed them expressly for speed and endurance in snow, and only that. They don't care if they have masks, if they have standing ears, if they are white or grey or all black. They don't care if they are 30lbs or if they are 50lbs. As long as they get the job done and get it done well, sledders breed them, and they don't care what breed it is. Implicit in this is that Alaskan Huskies are a group of mixed breeds bred for work.

And you know what? Those dogs reflect that 100%.. from one Alaskan Husky to the other you will find very little in the way of *any* true type of uniformity. But they do the work. Is that what you're talking about? Then if that's so, why do we need a set of physical standards? Because purebred dogs are about the entire package - BOTH how they look and how they are supposed to act. It doesn't make sense to say looks don't matter and nobody should stress it. Looks are every bit as important to the purebred dog as how they act.

"Take GSDs for example, every standard states "Must show confidence". Not can, not may, not should, MUST."
Right, but this leaves room for interpretation too. One person's judgment of how much confidence is sufficient, differs from another's person's judgment on sufficient confidence. Is a dog that has passed SchH "confident"? Sure, within the boundaries of the sport. But there are many police dogs in training out of SchH kennels that do wash out. Were they not confident enough?

All very complicated questions, indeed.

Nebulosa - Open stud book: Mostly this means dogs of unknown or unregistered parents, who are of-type, can be registered officially into the breed, so to speak. So say you have a dog you think, looks, acts like a CSV. But.. you've no papers and you don't really know.. for all you know it could be a mix. Actually the AKC FSS system works under open stud book.

Luna's mom said, "I have been in SchH for 17 years and have yet to see an American bred dog in the sport."

Have you heard of the American GSD kennel Valiantdale?

[Gypsy Wolf]

Firstly, I didn't mean to open a can of worms!
The dictionary definition of a "breed" is "a relatively homogenous group of animals within a species, developed and maintained by humans." According to most registries, that means that the members of said breed must breed "true" - produce similar animals. That's one reason "labrodoodles" aren't a breed - they do not breed true after F1. Alaskan huskies haven't been purpose-bred for as long a time as other breeds like a greyhound (perhaps when they are an older breed we will see more homogenosity)- and though there is a difference between show and racing greyhounds, it is clear they are the same breed.
Part of the reason for the physical standard is not only to maintain "type" but to promote correct structure for that particular breed. It's not for "pretty" as much as for function. For instance, the angulation in the GSD - that is supposed to promote the breed as an efficient trotting dog - covering the most amount of ground with the least amount of steps. The American-Line GSDs took that quite far - so far they now walk on their pasterns and hocks and can no longer get over jumps.
Yes, there is certainly room for interpretation, but some things are just OBVIOUS. I have seen GSDs in the AKC ring hit the deck in fear during the "temperament test" and get FIRST PLACE. There is no question that that is not a correct temperament! The dog should've been excused, but instead, it had a lovely, extreme side gait so was rewarded.
The Vlcak's standard is to maintain both physical structure and type and character traits - "shyness is to be disqualified." That means, to me, that no matter how good and perfectly built a shy dog is, it should not be bred.
Again, there is room for interpretation... Luna can be aloof and hesitant in new situations, but I do not see "shyness." There is no running away or cowering behind me. Perhaps a Labrador person would consider her aloofness "shy" as they are used to a very gregarious breed.
Anyway, the point for me, is to maintain the breed, as best I can, to the standard, by word and "in spirit" - the stuff between the lines that is not written down, like courage, drive and heart. I am a steward of an amazing breed and I don't want to "water it down" just because it is more difficult to live with than a collie... American breeders are famous for doing just that - look at the American Doberman for instance - totally different temperament than the German dogs. The Am-line Dobes are sweet, soft dogs - excellent "pets" but not so good for what they were bred to do.
There are those who argue that the work of dogs has changed, and yes it has, to a degree, but I don't want to sacrifice the working character of the Vlcak just to make it a "good pet"...

[yukidomari]

Luna's mom, I hope you understand that I actually agree with 99% of the things you said.

Just trying to raise a few points usually overlooked, that's all. And BTW AmDobes (we've got one).. you've better believe that the DPCA worked tirelessly throughout the '60s and '70s to bring about what is the AmDobe today, ON PURPOSE, not for lack of caring. Today, they are good for dog sports, precision work, and for stealing beds (ask me! I know )

Yeah, I think there are just so many issues at work here, but I don't think it's entirely fair to disparage entire groups/countries/breeds/breeders. For better or worse I think anyone who actually, truly cares about the breed, regardless of direction, is still in it for the right reason and ultimately contributes a large and varied pool from which to choose mates from, and I do think as a whole enriches the breed.

And, certainly some things are for function - fur, angulation, etc. And some standards are for aethetics. Color of hair, color of eyes.. shape of head (does a deeper stop get in the way of work?).. etc.