handling of health problems

[Rona]

Originally Posted by loco

I hope for the future that it stil will be "mine own free will" to judge if something is a fairytale, gossip, a personel attack or the truth

I also think any kind of "cenzorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Ina, a lack of answer is also an answer.... Paradoxically, a very self-destructive kind of answer!

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Rona

I also think any kind of "cenzorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Its the bad side of more rigorous moderation, for who are ble to judge the informations, these people are also able to know who is right, who is wrong, what is gossips and so on will have the use of the forum for "let masks fall" cutted by half , but for newbies its pretty different, have people who arrives here without have the minimal idea about HD, ED, myelopathy, dwarf and others problems, someone who have no idea about it and read the unfair comment of someone which let clear about "how bad is for breeding have a carrier gen for dwarf in the breeding" and "how unscrupulous a breeder which breed using a carrier dog are" will only be more confuse, will start to seek only free dogs for breeding and find 'bad" that someone used a carrier dog and maybe, depending of the person, will even start to blame breeders who have carrier dogs, for exemple, wrong information can cause much more damaged than the lack of it.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Rona

I also think any kind of "censorship" would deprive some people of the valuable opportunity to unveil their true motivations and intentions.

Ina, a lack of answer is also an answer.... Paradoxically, a very self-destructive kind of answer!

Yes you are right but I think you sometimes need to know the whole story that happened before to realize that. And not all people think to the end of a story they heard or can read between lines.
For those who tend to believe what they read and are newbies it is like Nebulosa wrote difficult to find the truth. If the tactic wouldn´t be successful in at least some cases it wouldn´t be used for so many years for so many times and not every breeder would hesitate to write openly about his problem to look for advice.

I don´t care that much about people that are not intelligent enough or care enough to find out what is right or wrong, in my strange opinion CSW are intelligent dogs that need very clever owners to be handled properly.
But is it really in favor of the breed when we let lies get so much influence? It is much more difficult to get everything on a better way than to start right. If we look at the situation in some countries we can see how many non standard dogs and maybe also not healthy dogs this produces.
And if we look in some of these countries on the experts that gave their advice we will find the same people again that we find here telling their weird stories and giving no answers..

[loco]

Rookie or Big Expert ???????, it is still to mine own person to judge what is right or wrong .
And that is the same with everything, that make's us the persons that we are .
And if I ever listend to the people who are "the Big and Famous Expert", sorry then I never owned a CSW .
And surtern not from Warsaw.
And i'm very glad that i did not listend to the big and famous expert , because i am very happy with mine doggie .
A Eternal Rookie .

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by loco

Rookie or Big Expert ???????, it is still to mine own person to judge what is right or wrong .
And that is the same with everything, that make's us the persons that we are .
And if I ever listend to the people who are "the Big and Famous Expert", sorry then I never owned a CSW .
And surtern not from Warsaw.
And i'm very glad that i did not listend to the big and famous expert , because i am very happy with mine doggie .
A Eternal Rookie .

I agree. If we would believe to all this what so called "experts" are saying we would believe in MANY lies...

I heard SO MANY lies about different dogs and different breeders which turned out to be just lies and gossips that I preffer to make my own opinion basing on facts and not what one of two people are saying....

I think what really counts is just the common sence. And instead of spreading the "only truth" is it better to publish FACTS so everybody can judge what is the true and what not...

[Hanka]

Margo, if you know some litters with dwarf puppy in Czech rep. in last two years, why you did not contact me or Mijke? You know, we collect these info. We are not "open forum". If you know it on 100%, please write to us. I can contact beeder and I can ask him about more. You know, we try to compile "net" where genes go and every info has "value of gold" for us.....You know.
I don´t care about some stupid speaking of some people which know only attack other breeders. I have my own brain and I belive the dates what collect myself. Some cryptorchid in kennel- Hm, it can be, we have dogs, not machines. But I will not start to know it is bad kennel.....

For me is "closed" forum of "experts" not good idea. Who will tell: this or this person is "expert"? I think is bad situation if in countries don´t work breedcomission with these infos.

Short OT info: hi hi, now I know person which has first wolfdogs and now is this person BIG expert about wolfdogs (health, blood lines, in last days especially albinismus).For me is very funny when "somebody" write me email like "Thuomas from Finland" and this person writes me he is interest about puppy and he wants know info about my light silver pups what we have now......

I don´t want to be with these people in some "group of experts", thanks....
but we have demokracion. If people will want this forrum...............

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Only for one small add here, i'm searching for informations about eyes diseases in the breed and ED, so who knows something about it and wants share informations i'm open.

The of Maisons-Alfort did start last year together with CNRS in Rennes a research for eye diseases of CSW. The research is led by Dr. G Payen and Dr. S. Chahory.
They did test CsW's of French, Chech, Slovakian and Hunagrian lines.
And they did find for example: PRA, PRA related disease, cataract, retina dysplasie.
I'll try to get the whole official report of this research and will inform you later.

And HERE you can find some more eye test results

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

... but for newbies its pretty different, have people who arrives here without have the minimal idea about HD, ED, myelopathy, dwarf and others problems

There is no need to make newbies afraid with all kind of health story's they don't understand (or can't see in the right perspective)
That is why I did ask for also a breed/stud dog forum (for every registered breeder and stud dog owner, they don't need to be experts!)

There we can first discuss about a lot of health problems and later on make objective explanations on normal forum.
And I hope in breeder forum breeders will also speak more open together

For example only a few writers here now know there is also a new dwarf born in ....
But nobody wants to speak about this (even I don't want to!) because we don't want to harm the breeder.
Because newbies can possible think that it is not a good combination!
But for me it is a pity that we can't share these kind of info and photo's, because we all could learn of this.

[loco]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

I agree. If we would believe to all this what so called "experts" are saying we would believe in MANY lies...
..

hiih Sorry, but I really mean "big expert" .
And i will be the last to say, that they are telling lies .
Groette Martine.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Yes you are right but I think you sometimes need to know the whole story that happened before to realize that. And not all people think to the end of a story they heard or can read between lines.
For those who tend to believe what they read and are newbies it is like Nebulosa wrote difficult to find the truth. If the tactic wouldn´t be successful in at least some cases it wouldn´t be used for so many years for so many times and not every breeder would hesitate to write openly about his problem to look for advice.

I take your point Ina, but on the other hand one cannot shut the gossipers’ mouths and they’ll continue spreading their rumours /lies privately or on some other platforms, where there is no possibility to confront them and present true views and facts. Not to mention, that if banned or heavily moderated, they will keep victimizing themselves, and using this fact as an argument for their cases.

Last summer I met a man who asked me which kennel Lorelei came from. Since he looked a bit weird, (the type I call little macho willing to walk with a big wolf ) I gave him a name of a nonexiting kennel . We started talking about CSVs and he told me he had already conducted research for buying a CSV and one of the breeders from central Poland, the top expert in CSVs (sic!) briefed him about the CSV market in Poland. You wouldn’t believe what nonsense I heard about Margo’s kennel, about Galicyjski Wilk and a couple of others!!! By eliminating the “bad” kennels and adding 2 + 2 I could guess with great probability who the source of his “info” was, but since he didn’t mention the name directly, I won’t spread gossip.
Even if half of what he said was true, I should have already been sued by Margo for not taking Lorka often enough to dog shows , my dog should be half her size, have very poor HD and ED and would never be able to play unleashed with other dogs or peacefully walk in busy streets, all of which she often does. .

I am sure this man was not the only indoctrinated one! Such cases have happened, happen and will happen in every country, and I think it’s better to be able to address the gossipers: ask for evidence, details, names, etc. If they cannot display them, and in return only call their opponents names or do not answer the questions, they only discredit themselves. If they do answer, the situation isn't much better. Recent example? Even open, unprejudiced person, who tries to see arguments of all sides, finds it hard to understand how a breed expert may so easily blame breeder(s?) for not testing their dogs for dwarfism, if she herself hasn’t tested hers yet (only intends to ...) .

So maybe a moderate moderation would be a solution? Giving warnings to forum members who use offensive terms like liar, bonsai breeder, etc. or who use deplorable expressions like some of our little machos with big wolves sometimes do?
I don’t mean or mind hot discussions or strong argumentation, but if somebody cannot control himself to the point of throwing mud at others, he should be warned a couple of times and only then - banned.
On th other hand, the moderator or admin should tell forum members very openly and precisely what this person was banned for, so there is no room for victimization and self-victimization.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Rona

So maybe a moderate moderation would be a solution? Giving warnings to forum members who use offensive terms like liar, bonsai breeder, etc. or who use deplorable expressions like some of our little machos with big wolves sometimes do?
I don’t mean or mind hot discussions or strong argumentation, but if somebody cannot control himself to the point of throwing mud at others, he should be warned a couple of times and only then - banned.
On th other hand, the moderator or admin should tell forum members very openly and precisely what this person was banned for, so there is no room for victimization and self-victimization.

I think this is a very good solution, together with a new forum for breeders. Would it be possible to open such a kind of forum here?

@Nebulosa: I will try to reach a friend of mine of the DOK and ask if they are willing to help you with datas. You also could contact the VDH who gets a double of the evaluation form. I never heard of PRA in this amount in Germany, it would maybe also help to find out if it is spread in all lines like the dwarf genes or if it is only in few lines. As far as I do know we don´t have those lines of the test in Germany, at least not that spreaded, actually I don´t know one. But as we have to do eye tests with every breeding dog every year and the DOK, the VDH and the breeders get a copy of every test it should be possible to get the datas of every breeding dog in Germany. My problem is we don´t have an official club here so I don´t know if I can get the datas directly.

Another question: According to what I was able to read on the Polish forum there have been paternitiy tests done on Saarloos in the Netherlands, that showed that Chrop was bred into some of them, have they been done also on CSW the other way round?

Ina

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I think this is a very good solution, together with a new forum for breeders.

Sorry for being devil's advocate, but haven't some of the breeders turned to be the heaviest gossipers and bullies? Aren't you guys afraid they'll use the info from the expert forum to sperad even more rumours and gossips among the 'newbies'?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I know but somehow we have to find a better way to communicate and maybe it would be a possible way to exclude liars if the lies are proofed to be lies. At least in a breeders forum people mainly know each other and better know each others dogs.
Don´t get me wrong I am only trying to do some kind of brainstorming to find a better way to communicate and I find it always better to know as much opinions as possible. It is easier (and cheaper) here than by phone or private mails and I don´t have much time this year to visit shows or camps. I wanted to talk to Mijke in Bratislava but had to leave without being able to speak to anybody.

Ina

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I know but somehow we have to find a better way to communicate and maybe it would be a possible way to exclude liars if the lies are proofed to be lies.

I'm afraid the procedures to proof it would be quite a challenge. Besides, who is to grant the "certificates of honesty"? Admin? Poor admin... .

I'd suggest a skype discussion group to which you'd invite only people you know and trust. This would be free of charge if you all have broadband and much safer. What's more, nobody could blame you for not including them in your "private conversations"

[loco]

Originally Posted by Rona

Sorry for being devil's advocate, but haven't some of the breeders turned to be the heaviest gossipers and bullies? Aren't you guys afraid they'll use the info from the expert forum to sperad even more rumours and gossips among the 'newbies'?

Touché .