Elbow Dysplasia

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Rolf, could you please quote the exactly moment where Admin wrotes that the dogs without results will stay in the list of Stud dogs? I really didn't find it, so I believe that all dogs without ED results will lso be removed from the list.
So far seems that the datas on some places of the webpage are not actualized because its still the old page.

Nebulosa, no I can not, because Admin choose not answer that part of my reply in post 10(last line), but if it is so, then I apologize for assumption, but still I don`t see why ED 1/1 is worser than HD C(which I think is allowed to use in all countries), as Admin wrote :

"If you mate two HD-free dogs you will still get some puppies with worser results (dysplatic). When you mate two ED-free dogs you can almost be sure that ALL puppies will be healthy."

This frase makes me think that HD is worser than ED when speaking about heriditary diseases, but ofcourse I am not an expert

Rolf

[admin]

Originally Posted by rolf

This frase makes me think that HD is worser than ED when speaking about heriditary diseases,

Really? So you will prefer to breed with dog which is ill and the heriditary of the illnes is higher and the chance of getting ill puppies is bigger. Than with dog where the heriditary is smaller and the illnes is caused in many cases not by genetic but external factors... Weird way of thinking. Sp we should breed dogs with heart problems because the problem is no so common like HD... And breed with dogs with one testicle because very high percentage of offsprings of such dog will be normal?

According to the new researches VERY high influence on the HD-result have the external factors like conditions where the puppy lives, feeding and so on. So breeding with HD-free dogs only will not have big influence on the results in the population. I think better results we will get if the breeders will breed "natural" looking dogs where puppies look skinny like real wolves and not like fat "tanks" which we can see so frequently at the moment /where the hips are overloaded and can not develop properly/.
In opposition to this the ED seems to be mostly caused by genetic factors - as I wrote you can see it in the database that is is a problem of one or two CzW families - ED appear mostly by dogs comming from the same ancestors.

[Juniorwolf]

why do you edit my text when you quote it ?

Originally Posted by Admin

Really? So you will prefer to breed with dog which is ill and the heriditary of the illnes is higher and the chance of getting ill puppies is bigger. Than with dog where the heriditary is smaller and the illnes is caused in many cases not by genetic but external factors... Weird way of thinking.

I ask questions to things I do not understand, if it bother you, please tell me and I will stop ! but please stop trying to put stupid opinions on me, ofcourse I prefer to breed with dogs who are healthy(if I were a breeder).

Originally Posted by Admin

Sp we should breed dogs with heart problems because the problem is no so common like HD... And breed with dogs with one testicle because very high percentage of offsprings of such dog will be normal?

What do you think your self ?

Originally Posted by Admin

According to the new researches VERY high influence on the HD-result have the external factors like conditions where the puppy lives, feeding and so on. So breeding with HD-free dogs only will not have big influence on the results in the population. I think better results we will get if the breeders will breed "natural" looking dogs where puppies look skinny like real wolves and not like fat "tanks" which we can see so frequently at the moment /where the hips are overloaded and can not develop properly/.
In opposition to this the ED seems to be mostly caused by genetic factors - as I wrote you can see it in the database that is is a problem of one or two CzW families - ED appear mostly by dogs comming from the same ancestors.

HD C and ED 1/1 are both ill dogs, as non of them are 100% healthy and if one is worse than another, I really don`t know ? If you breed from HD/ED free dogs, HD seems to be worser than ED, when is comes to the result of the ofspring who are effected by this, but on the other hand, when you breed from dogs who are not HD/ED free it seeme that ED is worser then HD, when it comes to the result of the ofsprings effected by this.
Again I must say(with the chance to for this to be deleted in the next qoute), I am NOT an expert !

HD and ED is the same thing in different places of the body, I am sorry but I have never heard of any sientific test who proved that HD is more effected by external factors than ED is ? in fact, the differences between these two illneses I can only take your word for it is true... and as I can see above, your assumptions is not always true !

Rolf

[Hanka]

Hi Rolf. One very short (and maybe stupid) question. Can you buy for you for example puppy from mother with czech HD result D (3/3) and italian B? If this puppy will be health (A or B), will you breed him?

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hi Rolf. One very short (and maybe stupid) question. Can you buy for you for example puppy from mother with czech HD result D (3/3) and italian B? If this puppy will be health (A or B), will you breed him?

Hi Hanka,
I don`t care from which country HD results is made as I have no knowledge of which countries/vets. is better or worse to make exact HD resuts. When I buy a puppy or choose to use my own dogs for breeding, I leave all questions about health to people who I trust have enough experience/knowledge about this and don`t worry any more about it.

HD D is not allowed to breed in Denmark(I think in all FCI countries?).

Rolf

[Hanka]

I hope in other countries too
I wont only this answer.

[SERENA]

Originally Posted by Hanka

One very short (and maybe stupid) question. Can you buy for you for example puppy from mother with czech HD result D (3/3) and italian B? If this puppy will be health (A or B), will you breed him?

It is unjust!
Hanka I like your work and your seriousness, but whenI go to made HD results for my dog, I go to University of Padova (where there are famous and important teachers and studies on displasy) they tell me immediately that she is sure A and than this results go to the ufficial reading central (there are only two central in Italy) and the ufficial results is A.
If what you say would be true, in Italy all dogs will be A or B, but it isn't the real situation! There is also C, D and E.

What dogs did you know that have mistake results?

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I hope in other countries too
I wont only this answer.

For the moment, all you have to do in Denmark to breed with a CSW,
is to get a 2. place at an international dogshow, nothing more...
So if you don`t make official xrays, you can breed with all CSW`s in Denmark does`nt matter if the dog have strong HD, ED or other illnesses.

I hope to change that in the near future, but things take time !

Rolf

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Admin

According to the new researches VERY high influence on the HD-result have the external factors like conditions where the puppy lives, feeding and so on. So breeding with HD-free dogs only will not have big influence on the results in the population. I think better results we will get if the breeders will breed "natural" looking dogs where puppies look skinny like real wolves and not like fat "tanks" which we can see so frequently at the moment /where the hips are overloaded and can not develop properly/.
In opposition to this the ED seems to be mostly caused by genetic factors - as I wrote you can see it in the database that is is a problem of one or two CzW families - ED appear mostly by dogs comming from the same ancestors.

What is written here is very interesting and new to me.
If this is the decision of the administration of Wolfdog.org, let it be (i'm not sooo much against it actually)
But, I kindly ask the Admin if it's possible to write, for more and better knowledge of the viewers, the criteria used to make the list and what makes you be excluded.
Also... could the Admin kindly state if ALL the dogs included in the list have HD results sent to Wolfdog.org (as always requested in the past?) or just ... announced by email from the owner.
Thanks
Massimo

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

According to the new researches VERY high influence on the HD-result have the external factors like conditions where the puppy lives, feeding and so on. So breeding with HD-free dogs only will not have big influence on the results in the population. I think better results we will get if the breeders will breed "natural" looking dogs where puppies look skinny like real wolves and not like fat "tanks" which we can see so frequently at the moment /where the hips are overloaded and can not develop properly/.
In opposition to this the ED seems to be mostly caused by genetic factors - as I wrote you can see it in the database that is is a problem of one or two CzW families - ED appear mostly by dogs comming from the same ancestors.

Massimo can translate please?

Definizione scientifica dell'HD:

La displasia dell'anca intesa come degenerazione articolare dell'anca su base genetica è una malformazione coxo-femorale. E' una patologia poligenica e multifatoriale. Poligenica perchè molti geni intervengono nella sua manifestazione, diverse tipologie di controllo genico governano questo poligenismo, dalla comune Dominanza, Recessione, Compenetrazione Parziale o Completa nonche l'Epistasi (fenomeno per cui un tale gene in un determinato loci può influire nel comportamento di un'altro gene in un'altro loci) Multifattoriale perchè la sua espressione è fortemente legata alle influenze ambientali come stile di vita, traumi ed alimentazione.
E' scientificamente provato e riconosciuto che i fattori ambientali possono solo influire sulla modulazione e sull'espressione della patologia. Un cane geneticamente sano non può soffrire di displasia dell'anca per un influenza ambientale. L'influenza ambientale può far si che un cane geneticamente predisposto, manifesti solo un'imperfezione (HD-B, in Italia definita anche sospetta displasia) o una grave espressione della stessa (HD-E).
E' altresi errato affermare che lo stile di allevamento possa generare cani displasici per sola influenza ambientale. Un fattore ambientale nocivo nel cucciolo può in un cane geneticamente sano per quanto riguarda HD, provocare una degenerazione artrosica dell'anca (dovuta a traumi e infezioni batteriche, ect ect), molto simile all'HD per sintomi, ma ben distinguibile nell'esame radiografico.
La displasia del gomito è una patologia più facilmente eradicabile rispetto all'HD, perchè è governata da un solo gene di controllo semplice o Mendeliano, nella fattispecie è un gene Dominante quindi, per le leggi di Mendel, per eradicare un gene dominante è sufficiente eliminare dalla riproduzione il soggetto che presenta quel determinato fenotipo. Ovvero il soggetto che possiede il gene della displasia del gomito, presenta la patologia a livello fenotipico.
Nella displasia dell'anca, un soggetto sano fenotipicamente può avere un patrimonio genetico altamente predisposto a trasmettere la displasia e quindi non è sufficiente riprodurre sulla base del fenotipo dei genitori.
La stima del valore genetico (genetica quantitativa) è il metodo che fino ad oggi ha dato maggiori risultati, ma si basa su enormi e accurati notizie fenotipiche, calcoli genetici e correzioni matematiche atte a considerare i fattori ambientali nell'espressione della patologia.
La nuova frontiera (ne ha parlato recentemente Ina) è una ricerca sui marcatori genetici, o microsatelliti, ovvero delle conformazioni ricorrenti nella sequenza del DNA. Per spiegare in poche parole, questa ricerca non individua i geni responsabili, ma delle configurazioni ricorrenti (ovveri dei "disegni", marcatori nella stringa del DNA) direttamente collegate all'espressione della patologia. E' sempre un metodo indiretto come la stima del valore genetico, ma molto più semplice e più rapido nel caso di un buon numero di campioni di DNA.

- Atti del 1° Convegno Cinoflilo Nazionale 6 dicembre 2008 "La displasia dell'anca e nuovi criteri nella selezione dei riproduttori" relatore dott. Pedrani CELEMASCHE
-Missiva del dott. Vezzoni FSA
-articolo del dott. Asnaghi CELEMASCHE
-"Metodi di Miglioramento Genetico in Cinologia" Università di Pisa Leotta 2004
-"Genetic for Dog Breeders" Robinson 1990

affermare che allevare i cuccioli magri come lupi, sia un metodo di miglioramento nell'incisività della displasia dell'anca è scientificamente errato! Concordo nell'allevare i cuccioli nel modo più naturale possibile, ma non per motivi legati alla displasia dell'anca!

[massimo]

Originally Posted by woland

Massimo can translate please? !

No...too long!
Use google translator
And anyway you explain what was already said by others (Paula's explanation and Admin's one (who the heck is Admin??) was more simple and easier to understand!):
elbow and hip displasia are transmitted in different ways. Take away from breeding a dog with Elbow displasia and you have a higher probability to eliminate the problem because it's a Genetic factor while Hips are combination of genetic and environment.

[woland77]

Originally Posted by massimo

No...too long!
Use google translator
And anyway you explain what was already said by others (Paula's explanation and Admin's one (who the heck is Admin??) was more simple and easier to understand!):
elbow and hip displasia are transmitted in different ways. Take away from breeding a dog with Elbow displasia and you have a higher probability to eliminate the problem because it's a Genetic factor while Hips are combination of genetic and environment.

No Massimo, on first i explane than Hips can't be created by external factor, Hips start in any case from genetic heritage...breeding condition's of puppy can't be in any case positive or negative about the genetic's manifestation of Hips. A breeding condition beneficial for animals genetically predisposed do not manifest the disease seriously, is maybe better for the dog and the owner but is negativ for the genetic improvement of the population!!!

Massimo, you are very lazy!!!

[SERENA]

Originally Posted by woland

E' scientificamente provato e riconosciuto che i fattori ambientali possono solo influire sulla modulazione e sull'espressione della patologia. Un cane geneticamente sano non può soffrire di displasia dell'anca per un influenza ambientale. L'influenza ambientale può far si che un cane geneticamente predisposto, manifesti solo un'imperfezione (HD-B, in Italia definita anche sospetta displasia) o una grave espressione della stessa (HD-E).

Is scientifically tried and recognized that the environmental factors can influence only on the modulation and on the expression of the pathology. A genetically healthy dog cannot suffer from displasia of the hip for an environmental influence. Environmental influence can make that a dog genetically predisposed apparent only an imperfection (HD-B, in Italy also defined suspicious displasy) or a serious expression of the same one(HD-E).

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by rolf

but still I don`t see why ED 1/1 is worser than HD C(which I think is allowed to use in all countries),

The main changes are in the hereditability of the HD and ED, for you have an idea, the hereditability of HD starts in 0.2 and ends in 0.4, the hereditability of ED starts in 0.4 and ends in 1.0 (its the maximum it can arrives), depending of the breed.
We can't compare ED 1 with HD C as the dog with ED 1 already shows the degeneration, when a dog with HD C can have perfect bones with no degeneration, but only not nice norberg angles.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

The main changes are in the hereditability of the HD and ED, for you have an idea, the hereditability of HD starts in 0.2 and ends in 0.4, the hereditability of ED starts in 0.4 and ends in 1.0 (its the maximum it can arrives), depending of the breed.
We can't compare ED 1 with HD C as the dog with ED 1 already shows the degeneration, when a dog with HD C can have perfect bones with no degeneration, but only not nice norberg angles.

Thanks nebulosa, But don`t understand what you mean with these numbers and I have no idea what norberg angle is ? ...But I have been reading some articles in the past, stating that HD(I don`t remember if ED also were mentioned) is many times not that a big problem for the dog, if it have strong musculation and live a healthy life(not saying that it is never a problem for some dogs or is does`nt matter for breeding).

Maybe I am stupid, but HD = Hip Dysplasia and ED = Elbow Dysplasia, so it is Dysplasia in the hips and in the elbows, how come one is worser than another, I mean it is the same thing, but in different places, so the degree of how bad or good it is, must be in the scales HD = A, B, C, etc. and ED = 0/0, 1/1, 2/2, etc. ? ...or am I totally wrong ?

Rolf

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by rolf

Thanks nebulosa, But don`t understand what you mean with these numbers and I have no idea what norberg angle is ? ...But I have been reading some articles in the past, stating that HD(I don`t remember if ED also were mentioned) is many times not that a big problem for the dog, if it have strong musculation and live a healthy life(not saying that it is never a problem for some dogs or is does`nt matter for breeding).

Lets try to put it in percentage.
Hereditability of HD: 20% to 40%
Herebitability of ED: 40% of 100%
Depending of the breed.

In easy words, Norberg Angles are the meassure of the angle formed by the center of the femor head with the acetabulum border, those angle is one thing evaluated in the HD exam and different angles results in different HD results.
Basically, when more far the femoral head is from acetabulum, less angles it will have, worst result the dog will have.
Actually, this metod works pretty well and really helps the selection of the dogs, for sure it will show a displasic dog without any problems as it will show any kind of degeneration already existent, but the polemic of the metod is that the laxity of the cartilage cannot be really evaluate in the X rays, so we can see some cases of females in heath who had receive bad results in the first X rays, and a normal one with nice results about 2 months after it because the hormonal incluence in the cartilages, we also have few cases of very old dogs with bad norberg angles but no damage at all in the femor, but this last one seems to be pretty rare.
Remembering that now we have the Distraction metod ( pennhip) which evaluate the laxity, but unhapply its still not avaible for every country like the well know X-ray metod.
I think this part already reply you the next one, what is the difference in a HD C dog and a ED 1 dog, as the two are considerated displasic

Maybe I am stupid, but HD = Hip Dysplasia and ED = Elbow Dysplasia, so it is Dysplasia in the hips and in the elbows, how come one is worser than another, I mean it is the same thing, but in different places, so the degree of how bad or good it is, must be in the scales HD = A, B, C, etc. and ED = 0/0, 1/1, 2/2, etc. ? ...or am I totally wrong ?

Rolf

A dog with ED 1 was evaluate like that because the veterinary already found a degeneration, that means a dog with ED 1 already have the signals of degeneration, like Osteophytes or sclerosis while an displasic C dog can receive those results without have any degeneration, but bad Norberg angles. When you have the Elbow signal and results pretty clear, you don't have such certainly in Hips, don't wonder why on HD you have some degrees before consider a dog affected or not, while on ED or the dog is clear or he is already affected and the others results will only show how worst it is.

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Hereditability of HD: 20% to 40%

...this is wrong...HD ever start from genetic heritage...development of the disease for 80% depend on external factors!!

is a big differences!!!!

"...a genetically healthy dog can not get HD disease from external factors.."

i must put bibliografy again?

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by woland

...this is wrong...HD ever start from genetic heritage...development of the disease for 80% depend on external factors!!

is a big differences!!!!

"...a genetically healthy dog can not get HD disease from external factors.."

i must put bibliografy again?

Where the bibliografy you send have the hereditability of HD? I only saw an adversiment about it, almost a cultural one for breeders.

OBJECTIVE: To determine incidence, risk factors, and heritability estimates of hind limb lameness caused by hip dysplasia in a birth cohort of Boxers. ANIMALS: 1733 Boxers from 325 litters. PROCEDURE: Status of Boxers with respect to clinical signs of canine hip dysplasia (cCHD) was registered during an 8-year period. Survival analysis accounted for dogs lost to follow-up. Effective heritability for developing cCHD was estimated by use of a proportional hazard model on the basis of the Weibull distribution. Parametric survival models were developed to identify the influence of potential risk factors. RESULTS: Cumulative hazard rate for cCHD from 7 weeks to 8 years of age was 8.5%. Dogs that were kept on a floor covered with a slippery material were 1.6 times as likely to develop cCHD, compared with dogs kept on a nonslippery floor. Risk of cCHD doubled in dogs from litters with a high preweaning mortality rate. Dogs that were neutered at 6 months prior to a diagnosis of CHD were 1.5 times as likely to develop cCHD, compared with sexually intact dogs. Dogs >5 years of age were 1.8 times as likely to develop cCHD, compared with younger dogs. Estimated effective heritability of cCHD was 0.11. In terms of the risk of cCHD in progeny, mean estimated breeding value (EBV) of the 10 best and 10 worst sires was -0.32 and 0.42, respectively. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Registration of Boxers that develop cCHD may provide a strategy for disease prevention. In addition to diagnostic evaluation of radiographs, sire EBVs provide useful information for breeding selection decisions.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract

Its only one studie who shows numbers like that, if you search you will find much more.

I no moment I said HD was not a genetical illness, but the truth is that external factors make a huge difference in the results, of course a dog without genetic for displasy will not show it BUT nothing impeach this dog to have a subluxation because the place it lives or by accident, wrong feed with wrong exercices can cause artritis, all those cases will be considered displasic in the exams, even if those animals have no dysplasi in their genetic, of course we will not see an A dog turn E because it, but we can see non displasic dogs with B or C.
No wonder why we have so many grades for HD.

Yes, the dog cant get displasy by external factors, but he can have artritis and artrosis by it, and it will change the HD evaluation on the official results also as a non displasic dog with bad norberg angles.
In the same way you can get a dog which have a strong genetic for the problem, but because the threatment it will receive B or C.

Well, we have no doubts about how 20 to 30% of genetic can make a huge difference, you can see it principally in the behaviour of working dogs, now you can imagine how much difference it can make when its 40 to 100%.

[SERENA]

A harmful environmental factor in the pup is genetically able in a healthy dog as HD regards, to provoke a arthrosic degeneration of the hip (owed to traumas and bacterial infections, ect ect), very similar to the HD for symptoms, but well distinguishable in the x-ray examination.