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Breeding Information about breeding, selection, litters.... |
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30-01-2009, 13:17 | #21 | ||||
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You recognized my expressions as attack but it is only showing my disappointment because whom I consider for a long time as serious breeder is not a little bit better person than breeders he criticizes. And with every new private message I receive it makes me more sad. You all have very professional web pages and great database but the level of the breeders stay fare behind the level of internet presentation and it is not possible to call such kind of behaviour as a "responsible breeding". And reading the opinions written in this topic by breeders (?) which do not see anything wrong on producing 20 puppies of one female within one year I feel really sad for this breed and the dogs which such people own. I could write that for me it is pure abuse of the female but it is not about my private opinion. One thing what you can not change and you must all follow are the regulations; and the VDH says "only one litter per year is allowed". Mr. Massimo please do not hide behind being "pitty of missing a litter" because we all are not children which are not able to count - mother of this litter gave birth to puppies in December, so she was covered in October. The next heat will be due next October. If there would be no litter this time they will not loose anything. Because there was one litter born last year (01.2008) and it was sure when they would not cover the female now the next litter would be born in 2009. It means no "lost" heats but also keeping to the RULES. Is it so hard? I checked the German forum once again and still I have no explanation for it. There is written that the VDH allowed it because the female is healthy. And the main explanation given by the breeder is that the female was forced to have 20 puppies a year because she "loves puppies so much". Does it mean other German breeders keep to the rules because they females are in bad condition and they need more time to recover than the Michael's females? Or maybe although also other femals are in great contition other breeders do not cover them twice a years because the regulations and the good of the dogs is much more important than rising as many puppies as possible? Everyone of us know mutt females which have litters 3 times a year and look healthy but I don't know any serious and responsible breeder who will cover his female 3 times a year even if he could. Also I will not call a responsible breeder person who ask for such behaviour permission (don't forget in Germany something is not officialy allowed and you must ask for special permission). Of course I can be wrong and the breeder asked a special permission and the litter will be counted for the year 2009. In this case - if I get guarantee that Falin will have no other litter in 2009 I will officially apologize here. Quote:
And Your try to absolve abusing of the females is for me incomprehensible. From the other side what I took the look on the dogs you own and listed I must admit that you have a very weird kind of choosing the breeders. I'm not familiar with TWH but I know your kennel names since all are pretty "famous" on this forum. And even if only 50 percent of the facts written by Michael about the mass production of puppies by Passo del Lupo and health and character problems in this kennel or the story about Crying wolf written by Christian after he took Myla: about very poor conditions and puppies growing up in rabbit cages in this kennel I would say openly I will never made the choice like you while choosing the puppies. I do not care about any stories about quality, or missing quality, of the dogs coming from both kennels but purely about the conditions. While buying puppies you pay money which force the breeders to produce more and more dogs who are being abused in this way. And indirectly the puppy buyers like you are also responsible for the poor life the poor dogs lead there. Since last few days I will also not recommend Zlata Palz but as far I can see it fits to your preferences. I can understand you will protect it because if you would not agree with the kind of treating animals in the three listed kennels you would also not buy a puppy from them. But I hope you also understand that for many other dog owners the life of animals and conditions in which they are living and the way they are threated are more important than the pedigree, puppies and money. Quote:
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For me two things become clear: instead of any explanations all I get is hiding the truth and trying to avoid any official answers. Soon I will be banned only because I asked wrong questions to the wrong person. Nice way of dealing with any opponents. KGB can learn of it. From the other side the answers I get from Michael, even if they do not include any facts, are also a clear answer for me that my suspicions must be true because they caused such enormous aggression. It made me clear which kind of person is my debater. Instead of discussion and answers all I get are personal attack on my dogs and me. I hope you will understand that I will not publish my personal information since I was already informed that all I can get after it is not a clear answer but offending phone calls full of fury. |
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30-01-2009, 13:35 | #22 |
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30-01-2009, 13:42 | #23 | |
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You should look for better information sources very urgently. And try to do what every sensible person does: Get your informations from the persons directly instead of following rumors...But of course that would ask for at least some little bit of straight thinking. The VDH is the only one ruling the breeding in Germany, they register the dogs, they give the pedigrees, none of them owns a CSW and none of them is a fool. All litters have normal pedigrees and registration and now start thinking, it´s more than time. Ina |
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30-01-2009, 13:44 | #24 |
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So: how it works in Germany? , I don´t understand. Is there club, what have any regulations? And: if somebody does something wrong- does club anything against it? Is there any club goverment? Can club punish some bad breeder? (For example- litter without pedigree?)
Who watch all breeders? Works there any breedcomission what watch health of breed? If no- why you have not working club? |
30-01-2009, 13:57 | #25 |
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Germany has the kennel club = VDH and Breeding Clubs that are members of the VDH. To get a Breeding Club you have to show how many dogs and different lines (not related up to the 4-5th generation) you have, nationally, not internationally. You have to pay 14 000 Euros (you can get a reduction to 7 000 if you are lucky). Then you have a period of two years to get specialised judges (that are not allowed to start training before that) and breeding controlers (who have to do a special training too and can´t start befor the period) of your own, judges and breeding controlers have to be breeders. After that period you have to show that you have done all that and continued to build up the breed. Than you have to pay again 14 ooo (or 7000) and when you are lucky you are a member then.
We (the first German Club) are trying to get there since more than a decade, we may be succesfull in the nearer future but don´t know for sure. Till then you need for breeding in Germany a hip x-ray, an eye test not older than 1 year, 1 exhibition and one special exhibition for breeding, that´s all. Pedigrees, registration and special permissions are given by the VDH directly. Bonitations, Edurance tests, ED-x-rays and everything else is done volunteeringly and not asked for by the VDH. Ina Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 30-01-2009 at 14:00. |
30-01-2009, 14:49 | #26 |
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Thank you Ina for explain. And now please explain me. Is anywhere wroted: how often female can have pups, what must be conditions for parents? (age, shows, X-ray, zuchtsulassung or bonitation, etc)? And who watch and control it? is it work of club?
From forum it looks you don´t keep theese conditions. So what is true? Because this is never ending story. Only attacks and attacks..... It is bad, to read only the same: problems between people. it is not about wolfdogs already. |
30-01-2009, 15:19 | #27 | ||
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Every kennel club in every country has this possibility and uses it. If you fullfill the conditions and ask in advance they get full Registration and pedigree. Quote:
As long as people like Christian and Neufi-friend get attention the quarrel will go on. The reason is not concern of the breed but trying to discredit and blackmail, it is as simple as that. I am sorry for that but simply can´t help it. Greetins Ina |
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30-01-2009, 17:31 | #28 | |||||||||
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Maybe would be interessing you know that breeding dogs is much more than folowing hole-breeds club rules. Quote:
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Maybe would be better you know our breed before judge if this litter was wrong or right. Quote:
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As you know DVH rules and German lenguage I wonder why have you as good user made 6 posts on english forum all about the kennel Zlata Palz and the VDH rules. So far I know about some little problems with trolls and clones on German forum, as a little bit about the fights that happen there so I can took more strong position as moderator for put out a suposed troll before it cause more problems. Sure, moderator can also suffer the consequences, so far i'm only threating you as the anonimous you are but if you want put me in aprocess be happy, I only wish you good luck and very long live.. unhappy, our justice is pretty slow. Quote:
With those points I gave you 3 days for fulfill your datas, if you don't so I would confirme you're a troll, and ban before things get hot here. Opponent? Maybe I live pretty far for have really opponents on Germany
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Last edited by Nebulosa; 30-01-2009 at 17:34. |
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30-01-2009, 23:49 | #29 |
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Neufi Friend.
WHAT IS YOUR NAME???? do you own wolfdogs? do you own dogs at all?? I'm just curious massimo
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---------- Oliver & Lunatica |
31-01-2009, 00:49 | #30 | ||||||
Senior Member
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My first reaction in reading a series of ignorant sentences was to reply in a hard and bad way.
Then I thought about it and I understood how poor knowledge you have of anything you are writing about and how poor respect of what you ignore you have and what a high opinion you have about yourself and your opinions... Response? poor Mr or Mrs Neufi-friend...entering the "world" of wolfdogs not knowing anthing about it and trying to give moral judgements about it. Some simple and silly examples: Quote:
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You quote one person, my friend Christian, and take him as a reference when he speaks bad about Crying wolf and then you take Michael's words about mass production/health/character about Passo del lupo kennel and then speak bad a bout Zlata Palz!!! that is really weird. 1) do you know Michael? 2) do you know Christian? 3) have you visited Crying wolf kennel? 4) have you visited Passo del lupo Kennel? 5) has Micheal visited Passo del lupo Kennel? All 5 points I can reply YES... and very well.... I doubt it... Passo del lupo Characters: Oliver Passo del lupo: my dog... do you have any idea of his character? Ask around... 99.9% of wolfdogs are much more shy than he is... Of course... I don't like their mass production, but no other dog you know is better fed or in better hygenic conditions. Zlata Palz abuse their females: well... I tell you what I saw: 4 females living inside the house freely as if they were the owners of the house. Puppy litter growing up near the bed of the breeders One of the females slept on the bed with me (not sure if that is abuse on dog or on me!) One male... one of the best characters of CSW dogs around... and it's not just thanks the dog's bloodline. Crying Wolf: Edit Molnar is a friend, a good friend since many years. Many times I don't agree with her breeding plans. I know she loves her dogs I've been many times in her kennel. Rabbit cages?? I've been many times in her kennel. I saw Myla when she was less than 2 months old (before Christian...) NO RABBIT CAGES. One woman, 4 fences, various dogs turnover to be free in the fences several times per day. 90% of Edit's time is dedicated to her dogs. I am sure you would have problems only with 1 wolfdog... Of course... people like me, Sonja Bognarova, Hana Kaufmanova who trusted Edit leaving their dogs in her kennel must be very stupid. Or maybe not? Quote:
At least people know how and what I am.... AND YOU? Quote:
there is no comment to be done on this one. It replies on it's own. Quote:
I could make some examples that would make you shiver and make you wish all breeders were like the ones you speak so bad about... anyway...all wasted words... to an anonymous being. Massimo
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---------- Oliver & Lunatica Last edited by massimo; 31-01-2009 at 01:02. |
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31-01-2009, 01:02 | #31 |
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31-01-2009, 01:16 | #32 | |
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Funny... when I slept at Christian's place Myla slept on my bed! oh the girls cannot resist me! massimo
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---------- Oliver & Lunatica |
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31-01-2009, 09:07 | #33 |
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Well i didn´t join in the bed so I don´t know exactly.
Only the four legged ones? |
31-01-2009, 13:16 | #34 |
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31-01-2009, 20:10 | #35 |
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hello Ina,
thanks for your answer (once again) |
21-02-2009, 16:04 | #36 | |
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If it happens that the puppies are born earlier - for example the planned date of birth was 02.01.2009 but the puppies were delivered already on 28.12.2008 they check the papers if it was not "planned" and if not they will register is but the litter will be 'counted' as it would be born in 2009. So in 2009 you can not have ANY puppies. I know in many countries there are also huge problems with registered stud dogs which have "black" litters (mixes or puppies without pedigree) - where breeders get money for mating their dogs with mutts or dogs without breeding rights. The same is with breeders who have puppies with and without pedigrees.... In Poland we have no problem with it... Nobody will do something like this because if there will be a proof that your dog has intended litter without papers the breeder will be tried by the court at the Kennel Club and it is almost sure the breeder will be suspended. We also can not cover ANY female if our dog is not recognized stud dog. And it doesn't matter that for example in Hungary the breeder can use such dog. Polish owner can not cover the Hungarian female (because in such case he breeder will be suspended). But there is more - the Mutara gate will be NEVER possible in Poland. First because I do not know even one case where the Kennel Club regulations were broken so many times as in this case. Second - if something like this would happen here the people who were responsible for it will surfer SERIOUS consequences. Look the Czech case - the woman from the office who registered the fake litter is still there. The people who signed the papers feel really good. The breeder who made the litter is still registered CMKU breeder. Sorry but in the similar case in Poland there will be already some breeders who will be suspended for MANY years and their dogs removed from the pedigree book ( it means at the same time that the dogs can not be registered in ANY FCI country). In Poland there would not be the case of Passo del Lupo who took the dogs banned by the Czech Club and registered them in Italy. One because the breeder would be AFFRAID of the consequences. Second because it would be not able to breed with a dog who was banned by an other FCI club. (Third - because in Poland you can breed ONLY with PUREBREED dogs with FULL pedigrees). No, Poland is wrong example... If all countries will have the same regulation I promisse you there will be no mixes between CzW, there will be very few "black" litters and litters with fake parents...
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21-02-2009, 19:10 | #37 |
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Though I agree with you on most of it I can´t see the difference for the female when I look a Jolly´s litters: 21.11.05, 19.7.06, 3.3.07, 11.1.08. They are in different years but with less than 11 month in between.
Ina |
21-02-2009, 19:33 | #38 | |
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Anyway - if the female is changing the interval between the heats and it is smaller than 12 months there will be time when you HAVE to skip a heat without covering the female... With Jolly it was working really nice but by Merry Bell and Ali we already have years with no possibility to cover them because of the regulations... Without any chance to get a special leniency (because the litter were not over numerous and because the females are in great condition). It is simple like this here....
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