Offspring´s

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

and who You see problem. I like breeder see problemin this offspring- to small % be dogs to breed.
and when good dogs have big offspring is good, moore problem make this same litter with this same dog x bitch.

And who is make breed linie? cann me say who this make?

Yes I agree there are more to this then just the number of offspring’s !!!

But when you breed this much on one specific individual it will be hard to find unrelated breeding partners in the future…
As my example whit Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS already shows...

It does not matter if the dog is healthy or not, it is an unhealthy breedplan !!!

I also have become informed of this…

Quote:

"There is also the consanguinity trouble which is directly related to this point, on 5 generations some Crying Wolf mating have a COI of 25% (as reference brother sister mating gives 25% COI)."

If we do not do anything about this now it will be to late, the CsV breed will be a unhealthy and inbreed dog breed !!!

Apperantley the UK understands this already

how about you and your contry ???

Regards / Mikael

Vaiva · 16-12-2008, 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes I agree there are more to this then just the number of offspring’s !!!

But when you breed this much on one specific individual it will be hard to find unrelated breeding partners in the future…
As my example whit Omar z Krotkovského dvora CS already shows...

It does not matter if the dog is healthy or not, it is an unhealthy breedplan !!!

Well, I don't see such a big trouble in this. Let's say that I like a dog who is not alive allready, so I am looking for his son or grandson for mating with my female. Believe me, even if he had about 10 litters, it is so hard to find one... Some are not bonitated or without HD, or I do not like the other bloods that this dog has or the way it looks... A good stud has to be used with various bitches

So that he could pass his goodness to the future generations.

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Well, I don't see such a big trouble in this. Let's say that I like a dog who is not alive allready, so I am looking for his son or grandson for mating with my female. Believe me, even if he had about 10 litters, it is so hard to find one... Some are not bonitated or without HD, or I do not like the other bloods that this dog has or the way it looks... A good stud has to be used with various bitches

So that he could pass his goodness to the future generations.

You do not se a problem whit inbreeding and inbreeding desiases

And litters whit a COI on 25% or more on 5 generations

I am

but glad that you se HD as a problem...

Regards / Mikael

elf · 16-12-2008, 17:53

J. Gubbels - GENETIC MANAGEMENT OF DOG BREED POPULATIONS (2002) : http://www.gencouns.nl/artikelen/200...Management.pdf

Chapters 4 - 5 - 6.

elf · 16-12-2008, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

J. Gubbels - GENETIC MANAGEMENT OF DOG BREED POPULATIONS (2002) : http://www.gencouns.nl/artikelen/200...Management.pdf

Chapters 4 - 5 - 6.

In this page: http://www.canine-genetics.com/Genetics.htm

You will find again study case of over stud dog use ("The Price of Popularity"), but other articles that breeders should all read.

Vaiva · 16-12-2008, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

You do not se a problem whit inbreeding and inbreeding desiases

And litters whit a COI on 25% or more on 5 generations

I am

but glad that you se HD as a problem...

Regards / Mikael

You are playing words now. I just say, that not all the puppies of same stud are used in breeding, so it is good if a good stud has a lot of children. Inbreeding is for professionals, there is no need for you or me to use it in breeding.

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Inbreeding is for professionals

Read Elf´s link and get back to me about the proffessional part

I think the problem might be that future breeders will have no choice,
if the population of CsV are totaly inbreed already when they start

Regards / Mikael

Vaiva · 16-12-2008, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Read Elf´s link and get back to me about the proffessional part

I think the problem might be that future breeders will have no choice,
if the population of CsV are totaly inbreed already when they start

Regards / Mikael

Please, don't tell me what to do and I will not tell you where to go.

Somehow it doesn't seem to be SUCH a problem in our breed

Not that hard to find a stud, which is not closely related with your female.

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Please, don't tell me what to do and I will not tell you where to go.

Somehow it doesn't seem to be SUCH a problem in our breed

Not that hard to find a stud, which is not closely related with your female.

Sorry, I did mean...

PLEASE, Read Elf´s link and get back to me about the proffessional part

And maby then you will se this all as a problem ???

Best regards / Mikael

elf · 16-12-2008, 19:33

Quote:

Somehow it doesn't seem to be SUCH a problem in our breed

Not that hard to find a stud, which is not closely related with your female.

I have a darker view. It's currently not easy to mate two CsV and get a COI less than 20% on the full pedigree (and I guess nearly impossible less than 15%). Nowadays example, last 5 mating announced on this site: 18.53%, 23.72%, 30.89%, 20.78%, 27.10%. These numbers carry meaning.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 16-12-2008, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Apperantley the UK understands this already

how about you and your contry ???

Regards / Mikael

Calm down Mikael, I thought you Swedes have more sort of an iceberg character

.
Anyway, the mentioned above about the UK is not correct.
The whole breeding so far is based on one bitch (Lynx Legend).
WOLFZONE-Kennel even does a repeating of the first litter (Titan X Princesse).
The other litters from PACINO-Kennel are from Princesse's full sister and her mother Lynx Legend.

Regards,
Michael

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Calm down Mikael, I thought you Swedes have more sort of an iceberg character

.
Anyway, the mentioned above about the UK is not correct.
The whole breeding so far is based on one bitch (Lynx Legend).
WOLFZONE-Kennel even does a repeating of the first litter (Titan X Princesse).
The other litters from PACINO-Kennel are from Princesse's full sister and her mother Lynx Legend.

Regards,
Michael

Do not worry I´m cool...

But it did sounds good on paper, the UK plans

Regards / Mikael

elf · 16-12-2008, 18:50

Would be nice if this post goes to: "what are the breeding rules, a (new?) breeder, should follow -regarding the situation from now 2008- in the CsV breed ?

About stud dog max offsprings ?
About repeating mating ? Yes, no, how many max times, under which conditions ?
HD pedigree rules ?
COI, should be less than X% ? Or more allowed if condition Y ...

...

What are the thoughts of the (old ?) wise around here ?

Mikael · 16-12-2008, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Would be nice if this post goes to: "what are the breeding rules, a (new?) breeder, should follow -regarding the situation from now 2008- in the CsV breed ?

About stud dog max offsprings ?
About repeating mating ? Yes, no, how many max times, under which conditions ?
HD pedigree rules ?
COI, should be less than X% ? Or more allowed if condition Y ...

...

What are the thoughts of the (old ?) wise around here ?

Good idea Elf !!!

Regards / Mikael

16-12-2008, 17:53	#4
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	J. Gubbels - GENETIC MANAGEMENT OF DOG BREED POPULATIONS (2002) : http://www.gencouns.nl/artikelen/200...Management.pdf Chapters 4 - 5 - 6.

16-12-2008, 18:50	#13
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Would be nice if this post goes to: "what are the breeding rules, a (new?) breeder, should follow -regarding the situation from now 2008- in the CsV breed ? About stud dog max offsprings ? About repeating mating ? Yes, no, how many max times, under which conditions ? HD pedigree rules ? COI, should be less than X% ? Or more allowed if condition Y ... ... What are the thoughts of the (old ?) wise around here ?