wolf percentage

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

Oh, come on Mikael.... How many times has it been written on this forum, that CSV are not hybrids but dogs, let alone this thread!!! A few posts earlier I wrote that in any CSV wolf genes will never be higher than around 30% and Hanka confirmed this.... I know there are people who have the habit of reading only the last post in a thread and replying to it, but I don't think that's our problem...


Maybe Swedish Kennel Club should employ people who are more internet literate and bother to read the history of the breed (top left part of the screen, next to breed standard) before making any official statements?...

Don’t worry Rona I know

And I can agree that the Swedish Kennel Club did not wont to find out, but if they would read the History they would not have find out that the CsV are mostly GSD would they ???

And Rona seriously do you really think that a government can make a decision after have red something on a Forum, they need Facts not Gossip.

And if it say it clearly in the History, way do people from England ask you think ??? Thay know rather god English I believe.

And way do you think that the Clubs or Governments in Norway, Sweden and England have hard to find this Facts ???

It’s pretty easy to write nowadays CsV Wolf Blood is well under 30 %, or ???

And I’m enormously curious hove they counted when they decided CsV was between 25-30% Wolf Blood ???

I have met pure Hybrids on both 50 % and 75 % Wolf Blood, and believe me its more than a normal CsV owner can handle, compered to those Hybrids CsV are in my eyes not more then a dog whit a very little % Wolf Blood, maybe not more than 5-10% or 90-95% GSD if you prefer.

Very Best Regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

And Rona seriously do you really think that a government can make a decision after have red something on a Forum.

No, I don't. I think the authorities in your country, in Norway and the UK do not want to legitimise the breed for totally different reasons, which are hard to be formulated in legal terms. It's easier for them to use artificial arguments about wolfblood and play "fools" in genetics, than admit openly: "we're afraid that CSV breeding might fall into hands of dishonest & irresponsible, greedy people, "wolf maniacs" who will start producing unpredictable wolf hybrids and our country will start having problems similar to those there are in the US". No institution could make an official statement like this, i.e. accuse the citizens of POTENTIAL dishonesty and ill will.

Originally Posted by Mikael

It’s pretty easy to write nowadays CsV Wolf Blood is well under 30 %, or ???
And I’m enormously curious hove they counted when they decided CsV was between 25-30% Wolf Blood ???

It was explained earlier - this is pure maths. Nothing to do with the dogs' behaviour or features of character. Almost every dog can be matched with a wolf, so their genotypes must be very much alike. Exactly like Pavel, I don't understand WHY this unfortunate wolfblood percentage causes so much excitement! The authorities should be more concerned with the problems of dogs bred for dog fighting or mistreated by their owners.

Originally Posted by Mikael

I have met pure Hybrids on both 50 % and 75 % Wolf Blood, and believe me its more than a normal CsV owner can handle, compered to those Hybrids CsV are in my eyes not more then a dog whit a very little % Wolf Blood, maybe not more than 5-10% or 90-95% GSD if you prefer.

I agree. But where is the problem then? 30% or 5% - does it matter at all if ALL dogs are 99% wolfish?

Personally I'm internally convinced CSVs are a few-percent wolves in behaviour and 70-75% or even more in appearance
Who dares to disagaree with me?

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

But where is the problem then? 30% or 5% - does it matter at all if ALL dogs are 99% wolfish?

Personally I'm internally convinced CSVs are a few-percent wolves in behaviour and 70-75% or even more in appearance
Who dares to disagaree with me?

Yes that is what I think to, but there is a problem state that CsV are up to 30 % Wolf, sens people know aboute the problems whit 50% Wolf Hybrids is US and Canada.

The Norwegian and English governments used a report from the US and compared Saarloos and Cs Wolfdogs whit the Hybrids in the US, and certain Wolfdogs was up to 98% Wolf, but in this report they call all Hybrids and High content Wolfdogs only "Wolfdogs", and sens (we) say CsV are up to 30% Wolf now CsV and Saarloos are not allowed there any more.

There fore counting Wolf Blood is not fore fun in my eyes

Regards / Mikael

[GalomyOak]

In our country, and more specifically, states, there has been the struggle of what the legal definition of a wolfdog, or wolf hybrid is. Some states continue to outlaw hybrids, but I know from speaking to a family in one of those states, the government allows the CSV, since it has documentation that it is a dog. My state (Virginia) leaves it to the city or county to govern hybrids - you must have an exotic animal permit (and meet health/safety requirements) to legally keep a hybrid (of course, many are kept illegally in the US, though not in my city). I am NOT required to have a permit for our CSVs...they are registered DOGS.

Part of the question for the US government, or court, or animal control officer I think is: Who determines what a dog is - the kennel club, a veterinarian, green aliens from spaceships? I think our governments are smart (in this tiny instance) to recognize that there are organizations with more knowledge than themselves (such as AKC, or a veterinarian) to know what a dog is. Our AKC reciprocates registry with the FCI - if FCI calls it a dog, so does the AKC. The FCI called the CSV a dog in 1982, then AKC trusts, it is a dog (we just don't have enough CSVs here yet to have full AKC breed recognition). Dog x dog = 100%dog
Just in case our government had any questions, they look to the American Humane Society, who says anything after F5 is a dog - our dogs are several generations past...

Our new neighbors through the forest are not so easy to convince!

I think our breed is just very honest about our "roots", for better or worse - all breeds, if you go back in the history many decades or hundreds or thousands of years, would say a wolf was crossed with dog, or humans selected traits of wolves to use...blah, blah, blah - this history is not as important to other breeds as what queen owned it first, etc. Obviously in terms of conformation and purpose, the wolf was an important component to our CSVs - but the component, through the art and science of breeding has been controlled to only the "usable" qualities..

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

The Norwegian and English governments used a report from the US and compared Saarloos and Cs Wolfdogs whit the Hybrids in the US, and certain Wolfdogs was up to 98% Wolf, but in this report they call all Hybrids and High content Wolfdogs only "Wolfdogs", and sens (we) say CsV are up to 30% Wolf now CsV and Saarloos are not allowed there any more.
There fore counting Wolf Blood is not fore fun in my eyes

Well, I see your point now. But what makes the difference between a dog breed and dog/wolf hybrid is the level of predictability of the animal's appearance, character and behaviour. In case of CSV an exteremly tough and fast process of SELECTION for specific features took palce for several years. It was completed with a detailed breed standard and the establishmet of the breed. In in case of wolf/dog hybrids - there was no such targeted selection.

When getting a CSV the potential owner knows what animal he might expect (more or less ) . When buying a wolf/dog hybrid of any wolf blood content either 98% or 5%- he/she may expect anything - from a wolf to a dog or any combination of these.

I think our breed is just very honest about our "roots", for better or worse - all breeds, if you go back in the history many decades or hundreds or thousands of years, would say a wolf was crossed with dog, or humans selected traits of wolves to use...blah, blah, blah - this history is not as important to other breeds as what queen owned it first, etc. Obviously in terms of conformation and purpose, the wolf was an important component to our CSVs - but the component, through the art and science of breeding has been controlled to only the "usable" qualities..

You're absolutely right. Several elements seem to work "against" the breed: the term "wolfdog" itself, the clear and open attitude to the breed "history", the opennes of the owners/breeders about problems with pups' upbringing & dog training, not to mention the health problems, etc. etc.

But we have to choose: either we'll openly share information about the breed and particular dogs, honestly cooperate internationally at he level of clubs and particular owners, listen to each other and openly discuss various issues without prejudce OR spend time on anticipating what authorities in various countries think or may think and be bothered by that... I don't consider the second attitude practical and I did explain the reason - we can never be sure what the authorities really think and what their true intentions/policies are.

I think that Per Olav's approach - the informative hard work 'at the bottom' is the best way to deal with institutional obstacles: people are scared of the unknown. When they get to know CSVs, see how the animals live and function in life, how predictable, and honest their owners are and how transpaent the breeding is (DNA, health tests etc. etc.)- they will be "domesticated" and stop treating CSVs and their masters as potential social threats.

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by Rona

I think that Per Olav's approach - the informative hard work 'at the bottom' is the best way to deal with institutional obstacles: people are scared of the unknown. When they get to know CSVs, see how the animals live and function in life, how predictable, and honest their owners are and how transpaent the breeding is (DNA, health tests etc. etc.)- they will be "domesticated" and stop treating CSVs and their masters as potential social threats.

Thanks

In the Scandinavian countries the term "wolf hybrid" is a tense one, and as we all now incorrect - genetically spoken. Wolf hybrids are outlawed in Scandinavia and in Norway free living "hybrid" individuals are shot to death. If my wishes came true the History of the CSV should be re revised, or at least the "hybrid" term should be replaced with the more correct cross-breed og someting similar.
--
Per Olav

[elf]

Personally I'm internally convinced CSVs are a few-percent wolves in behaviour and 70-75% or even more in appearance
Who dares to disagaree with me?

Well I do disagree a little in a sense that all the CSV I met were rather unpredictable and really cannot be compared with GSD. I mean I cannot think to walk off leash in a city or let my little boy with my CSV, things I could do 100% truthful with my GSD. So CSV are in my opinion rather specials dogs (and I think it's protecting them to highlight this point). But I also can agree that I met only not good specimen and failed the education of my CsV mix.

About wolf blood %, even with wolf gene % we would not be able to conclude a lot as it's a non-linear process (+ only few genes are involved triggering a specific hormone responsible for adult behaviour (genes highly inhibited in dogs)).

Dogs are socially well fitted for human world, wolves not, where are located the CsV ? : http://dusk.geo.orst.edu/lydia/doggies_science.pdf

[Rona]

Originally Posted by elf

Well I do disagree a little in a sense that all the CSV I met were rather unpredictable and really cannot be compared with GSD.

Well, I didn't say they were 100% GSD, did I? I said they were a few-percent wolves in behaviour .

Besides, don't get discouraged too easily. We could trust Tina 100% in the woods/fields when she was 2 or 3, but in middle of the city - only when she was about 9-10 years old.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Rona

Well, I didn't say they were 100% GSD, did I? I said they were a few-percent wolves in behaviour .

Besides, don't get discouraged too easily. We could trust Tina 100% in the woods/fields when she was 2 or 3, but in middle of the city - only when she was about 9-10 years old.

Yes I have the same experience whit my AUS cattledog to, working dogs are often to lively (wild) to run lose in the city as puppy’s and adults to.
I could have my Cattledog lose in Stockholm first at aboute 8 year of age, but lose in the country side already as a puppy.

But I trust CsV much more then GSD in general, GSD are guarding dogs and much more involved in fatal dog attacks them all Wolfdog breeds, even Hybrids, yes that’s a Fact not gossip, and in % of population.

Regards / Mikael

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes I have the same experience whit my AUS cattledog to, working dogs are often to lively (wild) to run lose in the city as puppy’s and adults to.
I could have my Cattledog lose in Stockholm first at aboute 8 year of age, but lose in the country side already as a puppy.

But I trust CsV much more then GSD in general, GSD are guarding dogs and much more involved in fatal dog attacks them all Wolfdog breeds, even Hybrids, yes that’s a Fact not gossip, and in % of population.

By trusting Tina 100% I meant her walking unleashed in a busy street, turning her head other side and pretending she didn't see a cat. She was used to running unleashed in parks since she was a pup, but a trained GSD would come to the owner immediately when called. We had to call her ritually a couple of times before she'd turn up. This was her way of showing us her independent nature, saying "I'll come when I wish".

My general observation was that when unleashed she was much more socially responsible - judged the situation and behaved rationally towards other dogs and people- usually approached them wagging her tail but sometimes, to avoid the encounter, she'd turn and pretend there were fascinating "stories" to smell.... When leashed she behaved more like a guard dog... not towards people, but other animals. When she was older, I definitely felt more relaxed when walking her unleashed than leashed.

When working with my husband in the quarries/fields - she was disciplined and patient -no leash was needed at all. She acted the leader/hostess looking after her "pack" and she loved this role. When she disobeyed it always meant that she had a reason, e.g. was able to spot a dangerously hanging rock earlier than people.

If Tina was a typical representative of the breed (which I cannot be sure) my conclusion would be that CSVs are independant & exteremly strong-willed, but grow to be rational animals, provided they are given enough time, trust and opportunity to develop their "intellectual potential".

In 10 years time I'll let you know if my next dog confirms this opinion or not.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by elf

Well I do disagree a little in a sense that all the CSV I met were rather unpredictable and really cannot be compared with GSD. I mean I cannot think to walk off leash in a city or let my little boy with my CSV, things I could do 100% truthful with my GSD. So CSV are in my opinion rather specials dogs (and I think it's protecting them to highlight this point). But I also can agree that I met only not good specimen and failed the education of my CsV mix.

Sorry but I disagree absolutely in this point. I have now 20 years of experience as a vet with GSH and about 10 years as a behaviourist and dog trainer (my husbands some years longer) with GSH and CSW and I personally find CSW in general much more predictable with small children than GSH. GSH is one breed I never recommend as a family dog. Though you can´t say that in general - as you never can with any breed - GSH very often have, caused through a very stupid breeding strategy a very low level of response to prey-stimulis and I know many GSH that show preybehaviour on running and screaming kids even when they grew up with them. I never saw that reaction on a CSW that is used to children.
All not reliable CSW I saw where trained in a very stupid way or not proper socialised and I can compare several hundred worldwide.
I also find CSW more reliable in their reactions in general they don´t switch their emotions as fast as GSH and they don´t get that overexited on prey-stimulis.

GSH surely are easier to train and don´t question decisions of owners like CSW but that has nothing to do with reliability. The statistics of Mikael are the same in Germany, if their is a breed that should be on dangerous dog lists (what shouldn´t be with any breed) it should be the GSH.

Ina

[elf]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Sorry but I disagree absolutely in this point. I have now 20 years of experience as a vet with GSH and about 10 years as a behaviourist and dog trainer (my husbands some years longer) with GSH and CSW and I personally find CSW in general much more predictable with small children than GSH. GSH is one breed I never recommend as a family dog. Though you can´t say that in general - as you never can with any breed - GSH very often have, caused through a very stupid breeding strategy a very low level of response to prey-stimulis and I know many GSH that show preybehaviour on running and screaming kids even when they grew up with them. I never saw that reaction on a CSW that is used to children.
All not reliable CSW I saw where trained in a very stupid way or not proper socialised and I can compare several hundred worldwide.
I also find CSW more reliable in their reactions in general they don´t switch their emotions as fast as GSH and they don´t get that overexited on prey-stimulis.

GSH surely are easier to train and don´t question decisions of owners like CSW but that has nothing to do with reliability. The statistics of Mikael are the same in Germany, if their is a breed that should be on dangerous dog lists (what shouldn´t be with any breed) it should be the GSH.

Ina

Let me detail a little more. About children, CSV are rather more brutal in games than GSD (and get fast and high in pression and are more difficult than GSD to slow down), this way I don't "thrust" them with children.
About walking off leash in cities, it's not safe with CSV as something can disturb them or attract them so high that a step away is always possible (also true for other breed, but I did not see this level elsewhere). Also about the prey drive, I cannot compare CSV prey drive and GSD prey drive (also there're two types of prey drive, the "prey drive and stop" as for dogs working with herds sheeps, and the CSV have not an atavistic stop).
On these points I could thrust 100% my GSD ... maybe she was a unique specimen.

I also met a kind of elistic way of thinking among CSV world, if something goes wrong, the problem comes from the owner because failed on the perfect education line of his CSV... and it's often true, but it's because the CSV is very difficult to handle. So why breeders are always producing more and more CSV ? Number of people able to handle very well a CSV is growing ? It's not protecting the breed to say that CSV are more predicatable or as not difficult as XXX to handle ... Chatting with breeders, reading forums, there is too much this idea highlighted that CSV are not so difficult dogs or not so unpredictable, I have many testimonys of people that are in an impossible situation because they believe too much what was written in forums, and eventually they just cannot cope with their CSV, these famillies are suffering, and at the end this is the dogs who will suffering the most.
My little bet, take randomly 100 CSV, 100 GSD, 200 famillies, put one dog in each families ... I bet more GSD will be happy and more CSV will be unhappy. So, one would say, breeders make the difference choising well the familly ... wrong, they mostly care most about money. So protecting the CSV, is highlighting their difficults points and not the opposite.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by elf

My little bet, take randomly 100 CSV, 100 GSD, 200 famillies, put one dog in each families ... I bet more GSD will be happy and more CSV will be unhappy. So, one would say, breeders make the difference choising well the familly ... wrong, they mostly care most about money. So protecting the CSV, is highlighting their difficults points and not the opposite.

Well I take this bet because I know this amount. You know what I think, if someone gets himself a CSW because he really wants something as wolflike as possible or if he gets himself a CSW because he want´s to win an IPO championship this is very likely to fail, the needs of the animal don´t meet the needs of the owner. The same if someone is not able to react selfconfident and cosequent to his dog, this doesn´t work out well too.
And I don´t agree with you on the forum, I never read here that CSW are easy going dogs, just people that think that they are special dogs like every other breed too, if this wouldn´t be the case there wouldn´t be breeds.
I wouldn´t let any of my dogs, of any breed I had, run free next to a crowded road, they are dogs not adult humans. But I do a lot of Mantrail-training in quite big cities, next to crowded roads, passing other barking dogs, my dogs work through traffic, passing dogs, people, cars, through restaurants in a highly concentrated manner, very reliable and much better than the Mallinois and GSH having trained with us.

I know a very good example of someone always saying he wasn´t told the truth. He tryed to get a dog from three experienced and responsible breeders, all three refused to give him one and told him to change to a different breed.
He insisted and got himself one of a breeder that doesn´t care about the place as long as the money works out. He got the promised problems due to his inability to cope with the needs of the dog, he has the opinion that is due to wolf behaviour and hyperactivity, he of course didn´t make any mistakes. He got himself a second one second hand, very bad socialised still very shy till today, that is for him now a CSW out of a "dogtyp working line". He has three other dogs of other breeds, one dog he owned before had to be replaced out of behavioural problems, one of the three may be replaced by know, I don´t know for sure.
If you see him and his dogs they show a behaviour against other dogs my five CSW wouldn´t even dare to think about.
Is this due to not being told the truth? No, the reason is the combination of a unrealistic, irresponsible puppybuyer and a greedy breeder, nothing else. Is this a owner problem? Yes I think so, his first CSW was replaced for some time, I saw it several times, a difficult dog due to his upbringing but a total difference in obidience and general appearance. If you tell him that he will answer that the second owner didn´t take the dog outside that simply is untrue there are a lot of people that know that.

Are CSW are easy going dogs? No, not in general but I know much more difficult and very old breeds they just don´t have the bad luck to have such a big attraction on the wrong people.

Coming back to being too hard playing with children: It is in your responsibility to teach the dog borders in play. Two of our puppies came to very small children around two years of age, they played rude with everybody else but never with those children, one of our dogs had a owner that took her to work with in a home for children, never any problems...

You see there are very good examples for both points of views, again, like in all breeds.

Ina

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

You see there are very good examples for both points of views, again, like in all breeds.

Very true!