Health of the breeds

michaelundinaeichhorn · 31-07-2008, 18:42

The health problems in Sarloos are nothing new but CSW still are over average health compared to other breeds.
What people tend to forget is that you have to find homes for several hybrids and coming back to England that Timberwolf definetly has nothing to do with CSW. Just google wolfdogs in USA and you will find several shelters and rescue societies together with reports about accidents. There are very good reasons why not every state does allow hybrids.
For all people I know keeping hybrids health wasn´t the main reason to get one. Very many of them feel save at the moment having animals that are not adult now, not realising that the difficult times haven´t come yet.

We raised and are responsible for 8 European wolfves at the moment and believe me even a half- or quater-wolf is much more than the common owner can handle not to mention the daily stress those poor creatures very often have. On the way to create the working breed CSW there was an very unusual hard selection and a very big amount of killed animals. Every animal not fitting the sheme was killed, do you really think you could do that nowadays, what do you want to do with them then?

Another point is that people think there are no diseases in wolves at all, that is simply not true, they just don´t reproduce on long terms. The same is with the thought that health problems will disapear just with crossing in one wolf, most of the Sarloos-problems seem to be recessiv, they just won´t show up for some years but the problems will come back unless you keep on with crossing in.

The only thing that can prevent and help is a good knowledge of breeders with hard selection and inventing DNA-Tests for inherited diseases, in very special cases going together with a very severely controlled and a very long term planed incrossing of other breeds/wolves. Breeding hybrids in private hands is for me an absolutely irresponsible and egocentric new hype. And irresponsible and egocentric people are horrible breeders.

Ina

elf · 31-07-2008, 19:11

Quote:

The only thing that can prevent and help is a good knowledge of breeders with hard selection and inventing DNA-Tests for inherited diseases, in very special cases going together with a very severely controlled and a very long term planed incrossing of other breeds/wolves.

I do agree with all that (and also for sure for hybrids living conditions...), but in my opinion expecting good breeding practices is not realistic, dogs is a business and especially for dogs the price a CSW/SWH. So I would lean to a severely controlled new blood introduction (the use of DNA-Tests would be necessary otherwise it may only leads to new diseases introduction) ... I guess it's not something that will happened any time soon in CSW or SWH. Let's say in 20 years ?

Rona · 31-07-2008, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

On the way to create the working breed CSW there was an very unusual hard selection and a very big amount of killed animals. Every animal not fitting the sheme was killed, do you really think you could do that nowadays, what do you want to do with them then?

Ina, I fully support your point of view. Any attempts to experiment with wolf hybrids or any wild animals by people who don't have good projects approved and supported by relevant authorities, who lack contingency plans together with very good scientific background & facillities, accompanied by solid financial backing and who don't ACT OPENLY (e.g. write honest, valid reports, present their findings at conferecnes etc.) is a sign of their total lack of imagination, responsibility and common sense. In my opinion they should be penalized for such deeds....

Besides, the huge suffering that occured in the Pohranicny Straze Kennel of both animals and people who were taking heartbreaking decisions is a reason valid enough to do everything to protect the breed from greedy maniacs.

elf · 31-07-2008, 19:54

I do not worry (for the moment) for CSW, but more for SWH. My opinion is that the breed really needs new blood. One the one hand as said it's needed to be closely controlled (and it's not something "easy" and "painless"), on the other hand waiting forever would maybe lead to the end of this lovely breed. Dead end ?

michaelundinaeichhorn · 31-07-2008, 20:34

I agree with you in this point, but there is the possibility to use CSW for that (and has been used allready). That doesn´t excuse the breeding of CSW with Tibers like in Mr. Winders case, and it doesn´t excuse the breeding of hybrids in general.
And looking at the SWH I am not very optimistic that it will be possible to rescue the breed at all, especially with the breeders involved that have caused the situation you have now.

Ina

jaybexx · 31-07-2008, 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

...And looking at the SWH I am not very optimistic that it will be possible to rescue the breed at all, especially with the breeders involved that have caused the situation you have now...
Ina

hi ina,

please try to keep at the issue of the post.

thanks and cheers,
josh

michaelundinaeichhorn · 31-07-2008, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaybexx

hi ina,

please try to keep at the issue of the post.

thanks and cheers,
josh

I didn´t start in this direction...
Anyway this is no SWH-Forum

elf · 31-07-2008, 22:17

Please be all mind open, ok SWH are not CSW, but there are very close (around 20000 genes for dogs, how many shared by SWH and CSW ?). Furthermore CSW can be in SWH situation in some years, worth looking at it throw this angle.
For exemple, SWH have a test for dwarfism, maybe this test would be useful as is for CSW ?

PS: let's open a new thread if this topic diverges too much from Winter's breeding.

nanouk · 31-07-2008, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

I do not worry (for the moment) for CSW, but more for SWH. My opinion is that the breed really needs new blood. One the one hand as said it's needed to be closely controlled (and it's not something "easy" and "painless"), on the other hand waiting forever would maybe lead to the end of this lovely breed. Dead end ?

One wonders where you base that on?
SWD like TWD and any other breed have some health problems. Since shortly there is a test for dwarfism available, something that will not only tell us if dwarfism is really a problem in SWD but will aslo help us with a better breeding for the future.
I do not claim the SWH does not know disease, but the breed is not finished without 'new' blood, only a cooperation with NVSWH and those dogs being used now are enough 'new' blood the breed needs! Cooperation and smart breeding is worth so much more as new blood.
Post like that seem to justify crossbreeding, feed fear and rumour, and lack facts.

I know several TWD with severe HD, know some other with other health problems.. does that justify me generalizing that all TWD are sick.. i doubt.
SWD is more inbred as TWD, but with the data i have on SWD i can in confidence say that i don#t see the future of SWD as negative as some as you do......

But the discussion is smartly diverted this way from pacino kennels to health

31-07-2008, 18:42	#1
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	The health problems in Sarloos are nothing new but CSW still are over average health compared to other breeds. What people tend to forget is that you have to find homes for several hybrids and coming back to England that Timberwolf definetly has nothing to do with CSW. Just google wolfdogs in USA and you will find several shelters and rescue societies together with reports about accidents. There are very good reasons why not every state does allow hybrids. For all people I know keeping hybrids health wasn´t the main reason to get one. Very many of them feel save at the moment having animals that are not adult now, not realising that the difficult times haven´t come yet. We raised and are responsible for 8 European wolfves at the moment and believe me even a half- or quater-wolf is much more than the common owner can handle not to mention the daily stress those poor creatures very often have. On the way to create the working breed CSW there was an very unusual hard selection and a very big amount of killed animals. Every animal not fitting the sheme was killed, do you really think you could do that nowadays, what do you want to do with them then? Another point is that people think there are no diseases in wolves at all, that is simply not true, they just don´t reproduce on long terms. The same is with the thought that health problems will disapear just with crossing in one wolf, most of the Sarloos-problems seem to be recessiv, they just won´t show up for some years but the problems will come back unless you keep on with crossing in. The only thing that can prevent and help is a good knowledge of breeders with hard selection and inventing DNA-Tests for inherited diseases, in very special cases going together with a very severely controlled and a very long term planed incrossing of other breeds/wolves. Breeding hybrids in private hands is for me an absolutely irresponsible and egocentric new hype. And irresponsible and egocentric people are horrible breeders. Ina

31-07-2008, 19:54	#4
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	I do not worry (for the moment) for CSW, but more for SWH. My opinion is that the breed really needs new blood. One the one hand as said it's needed to be closely controlled (and it's not something "easy" and "painless"), on the other hand waiting forever would maybe lead to the end of this lovely breed. Dead end ?

31-07-2008, 20:34	#5
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	I agree with you in this point, but there is the possibility to use CSW for that (and has been used allready). That doesn´t excuse the breeding of CSW with Tibers like in Mr. Winders case, and it doesn´t excuse the breeding of hybrids in general. And looking at the SWH I am not very optimistic that it will be possible to rescue the breed at all, especially with the breeders involved that have caused the situation you have now. Ina

31-07-2008, 22:17	#8
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Please be all mind open, ok SWH are not CSW, but there are very close (around 20000 genes for dogs, how many shared by SWH and CSW ?). Furthermore CSW can be in SWH situation in some years, worth looking at it throw this angle. For exemple, SWH have a test for dwarfism, maybe this test would be useful as is for CSW ? PS: let's open a new thread if this topic diverges too much from Winter's breeding.