P5

[z Peronówki]

Sorry there was no answer but we spent few days in Slovakia and came back first Monday evening...

Originally Posted by Bonfiglioli

Pongo qui questa domanda perchè mi interessa avere alcune informazioni.
Premettendo che non si è mai finito di imparare, ho notato il nuovo accoppiamento tra Jolly ed Iran.
Non ho potuto fare a meno di vedere che un "sotto-standard" alto 64 cm e NON coraggioso ha avuto un P5.
Come è possibile?
Ma qui in Italia non hanno dato dei P14 per gli stessi motivi?

It is huge story... Some of you are right - the influence on the bonitation code has different reasons. I can not explain why EXACTLY Iran is P5 and Cutt P14. You have to ask the judges which made the bonitations. So far I know it is because the "OVERALL VALUE" of the dogs.
Iran was living (and still lives) in HORIBLE conditions. Not enough food, he left the cage I think only 5-6 times in his live (for two dog shows, one run, youth presentation and one bonitation). But still he is very open to people and prying. Maybe the judge took in to consideration his life? Maybe it was the extremly unique pedigree he has and the judge decided this dog should be P14 but we need this blood in breeding so he/she gave P5....
As you can see Cutt is something else: he is living in perfect conditions so it was not the lack of food which could have the influence that he didn't grow enough and is too small. Cutt visited many shows so his character can not be explained with the lack of socialization. I heard also the charakcter and size were not the only problems which caused his disqualification. Also the 200 offsprings of Cutt make him a dog which has no value because his blood is everywere...
Maybe it is why Iran is P5 and Cutt only P14... Maybe...

Why we took Iran? There were different reasons... Everything was checked and very well planned...
1) Iran has one of the most unique pedigrees in this breed
2) He is not only very similar in look to Tambury I like a lot but also similar in the temperament and condition: he is 9 years old but still running and playing like young dog...
3) I know his offsprings - they are not only high enough but also VERY wolfish... One time you have to see Hron radov dvor: great look, great coat and high size. For me it is one of the nicest Wolfdogs I ever saw. I know also personally Ibona, Inka, and Chrtista. All very wolfish, perfect CzW. But I have something else - a dog which is very high inbeed on Iran - and... he is 100% WOLF in look. Here are some photos of the puppy which is 7 months old:




As you can see there are many reasons why it was good idea to use him...

Another thing is the assessment of the 'risk'. It is the same with the HD: for me is it much better to use dog with HD-C because you KNOW the dog is HD-C than to use a dog with no results because it can be HD-A but it can be also HD-E. So the risk to use HD-C dog is smaller...

The same is here: I KNOW Iran is 64 cm high. But do you know how many Italian dogs do not have the minimum? I saw some of them and the people are breeding with them without saying anything and I see no prostest written by you or someone else... Missing measerement to not mean the dog has the minimum...

Another example - my litter and your litters.

Jolly 64cm (a pretty big CzW female) with high dogs in the pedigree... Iran is 64cm. But the dogs in his pedigree are of average size... The only risk is the one cm of Iran...

Ombra is daughter of Cutt which is too small. It is hard to say about other dogs frm her pedigree because by some bonitation results are missing so we don't know if the had the minimum of the size, right?
You took Forrest for Ombra. Did you measured him? Because he do not look to be a high dog - I think he is average or under the average height. Maybe he is OK. But I know his sisters and brothers had serious problems with the height. Faust is MUCH smaller than Forrest. Falco is under the minimun (64cm) and Fargo also didn't reached the miminum (it was the reason why his owner didn't decided to the bonitation with him and gave him away in the end). Fortuna is OK, but also not a very big female...

So if you see I do not make anything strange... My choose was very good well-though-out and from the genetic side I risk much less than you risked with your litter...

PS: I do not have anything against your litter and the puppies look good but I want only to show this that if you have FULL information about something you risk MUCH LESS than by litter which in theory lokks OK but only if someone do not have enough einformation about the offspring, ancestors and bonitations....

And it was exactly the problem with Cutt - he had 200 offsprings and NOBODY knew it that he is too small. The question is how many dogs like Cutt are in this breed...? It is not a problem to mate Cutt with pretty high female. But the problem is: if you don't know the sizes of dogs you use you can not be sure that Cutt was many times not mated with females which ALSO do not have the minimum. Again: missing bonitation or official measurement do not mean the dog is OK...

[massimo]

Margo..alessandra wasn't pointing the finger to your litter, but we were just wondering if in slovakia there is a strict minimum height or can it be "flexible" according to "certain conditions" decided and evaluated by the judge case by case?
one thing is the "rules", the other thing is what we think about litters/breeding.

Alessandra non stava puntando il dito contro il tuo accoppiamento ma stavamo solo chiedendoci se in slovakia c'è un minimo di altezza "assoluto" o se può essere flessibile secondo "certe condizioni" decise e valutate dal giudice di volta in volta?
Una cosa sono le "regole", l'altra è ciò che pensiamo di accoppiate/allevamento.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

Margo..alessandra wasn't pointing the finger to your litter, but we were just wondering if in slovakia there is a strict minimum height or can it be "flexible" according to "certain conditions" decided and evaluated by the judge case by case?
one thing is the "rules", the other thing is what we think about litters/breeding.

Massimo, I answered not only Alessandra The answer to her questions was: I don't know. I suggested some "maybe"... It was the first part of my email...
I'm also not attacking her litter because she made it once, saw the results and decided to make it second time because there was no reason to be affraid I think. Simple...
There is always a risk - none dog is perfect... She likes the look of Forrest and decided to use him even if the size of his brothers is not perfect. We made the same - for great pedigree, offsprings and blood we are using Iran. So i don't know why some people wonder why we made it...

Sore we could go the another champion, make another USELESS litter where all dogs have similar pedigree... So for me Iran has much higher value that Pluri Champions with the same blood as 100, 200 or 300 other dogs... But it is another story about the difference between "breeding" and "production"

About the size - Cutt was P14. Nobody can say if it is genetic grounded because his offsprings are unknown in this part (never measured - maybe also too small)... But have to remember that also P14 dogs can be used for breeding (if the dog has problem ONLY with the hight). There is a dog in Holland - good looking but too small. According the pedigree he is OK (I mean his ALL offsprings are KNOW and BONITATED), so even the Slovak judge told him to made the test litter with good female to see if his hight was maybe not caused by the hard conditions in the kennel where he came form...

We know a female with broken backbone when she was 6 months old. Dog which brothers and sisters died because of leptospirose and he survived with kidney failure. Both were MUCH smaller then the minimum...
Sure nobody will use for breeding ill dog and both of the dogs I mentioned were sterylized. But there are also not so extrem cases...

What I meant: sometimes you see the genetic connection between small dogs. Sometimes a dog is just an exception. I would not use Cutt but took another dog with the same blood but with normal size. There is such possiblity. But there is NO another Iran.... And it is the basing point and maybe reason for his P5...

[valentina]

non voglio entrare nel merito di discussioni tecniche di selezione, di allevamento e di risultati cinofili perchè non ho i mezzi necessari per essere all'altezza della discussione.
Mi limito solo a leggere per iniziare a capire e a imparare qualcosa....

però una cosa ci terrei tanto a saperla ......
perchè Iran viveva e vive in condizioni orribili? perchè è uscito dalla gabbia solo 5-6 volte, perchè non ha sufficiente cibo?
Ma chi diavolo lo tiene così e perchè???????????????????

bellissime quelle foto.... da togliere il fiato

[LUCA]

Hai ragione Valentina.
In effetti siamo tutti presi a interrogarci su uno stupido P5 o P14, sull'esito della "scommessa" riproduttiva di Margo (verranno belli e sani i cuccioli? avranno un carattere d'oro come quello del padre?), quando invece l'aspetto più importante (e più triste) è proprio quello che hai evidenziato tu.
Questo cane, che nonostante una vita passata facendo la fame in galera, senza alcuna colpa, continua ad essere buono e ad aver fiducia nelle persone, fa veramente tenerezza.
Pensare che ha già 9 anni...

[valentina]

si, effettivamente per me ha più valenza il cane.... sempre e comunque....a qualsiasi prezzo ....

le ragioni di tutto questo qualcuno le conosce? mi piacerebbe davvero capire....

[woland77]

Mamma che bello che è Wilk!!!...qui in Italia abbiamo l'esempio di Kun, risultato di un accoppiamento che per molti non valeva una cippalippa, e invece Arnaldo sapeva bene cosa stava facendo...anche se OT, uso questo spazio per rinnovarti i complimenti per le tue scelte di selezione, mai scontate e con risultati ottimi..io aspetterei un annetto e vedremo i figli di Jolly e Iran, e allora li giudicheremo...sicuramente a Margo va il merito di ricercare linee di sangue nuove e di ardire e sperimentare negli accoppiamenti...molti, o quasi tutti, al posto suo, con una fattrice così titolata si limiterebbero ad andare sul sicuro e commerciale....Brava Margo!!!...

tornando all'argomento, la domanda di Alessandra è di sicuro interesse, per quanto le derive provocatorie lasciamo perdere....sicuramente ha ragione Massimo quando dice che tutto mondo è paese...sono convinto che la maggiorparte delle bonitace vengono fatte con scrupolo, e che le poche inciuciose non appartengono solo all'Italia...c'è da dire che non si capisce tanta fiscalità nei paesi d'origine nel rilascio dei pedegree, quando si ammettono riproduzioni con displasia C..è un'utopia aspirare ad una riforma generale della bonitace da adottare in tutti i paesi?

[LUCA]

Alla faccia della luposità!
Se i suoi cuccioli saltano fuori così....