Differences in bonitations...

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

Lol, can you tell me, which dogs with disqualifying faults I breed? I have one female 10 years old and spayed and other one P1 but with heavy dysplasia
I am not insane to breed on dogs with disqualifying faults!

OK, my question is now about Mery... I know you are not able to breed with her because of the strong dysplasia but bonitation code say NOTHING about dysplasia... It has no influence on it..
.
Were you never astonished about the excellent P1 note Mery get? During the youth presentation in Czech Republic she get P5 (note "good") because of the really visible problems with movement. The problem didn't disappeared and on your web page you wrote nice articles about hydroterapie which is necessary because of the problems with movement Mery has...

Look, despite of the movement problems which she has she get without any problems the EXCELLENT note during the bonition in Belgium... Just perfect code... [-> "is there a different standard for CSW in Belgium?"]

Let's say you have an another female which has the same problems with the movement but they are caused not because of HD but slack ligaments. And the problems are visible... You see - with such female you would get perfect code and breed with her even if it is serious DISQUALIFYING FAULT....
Did you really never wondered about the result you get?

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

OK, my question is now about Mery... I know you are not able to breed with her because of the strong dysplasia but bonitation code say NOTHING about dysplasia... It has no influence on it..
.
Were you never astonished about the excellent P1 note Mery get? During the youth presentation in Czech Republic she get P5 (note "good") because of the really visible problems with movement. The problem didn't disappeared and on your web page you wrote nice articles about hydroterapie which is necessary because of the problems with movement Mery has...

Look, despite of the movement problems which she has she get without any problems the EXCELLENT note during the bonition in Belgium... Just perfect code... [-> "is there a different standard for CSW in Belgium?"]

Let's say you have an another female which has the same problems with the movement but they are caused not because of HD but slack ligaments. And the problems are visible... You see - with such female you would get perfect code and breed with her even if it is serious DISQUALIFYING FAULT....
Did you really never wondered about the result you get?

Dear Margo, I have never been hidding Mery´s problems. They are very known, I´d say internationally I was not hidding her problems in front of the judge, Sona Bognarova either, Sona could see her not only during the bonitation, but also at our home and practically anytime for the two days she spent in Belgium. Despite the fact, and thanks to all the hydrotherapy we did, Sona could not find problems in her movement when presented in movement - which she said publicly and therefore gave her the code she gave her. If you are envious about a perfect code given to unbreedable dog, then I pity you.

If you were not ridiculous, you would realise that with the dysplasia Mery has and about which I know from her 9 months of age, I did not even have to bother to bonitate her. And that the result of the bonitation, be it whatever, would not have changed the fact that she will never breed.

Your hypothesis of "if I had a female" and "then it would be disqualifying fault" have no basis on real actions or facts. You have accused me and my kennel publicly and have absolutely no ground for it, except for your hatred and paranoia that everything is about you.
I would appreciate, if you apologised for the false accusations you have made on me, my kennel and my dogs.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

Despite the fact, and thanks to all the hydrotherapy we did, Sona could not find problems in her movement when presented in movement - which she said publicly and therefore gave her the code she gave her. If you are envious about a perfect code given to unbreedable dog, then I pity you.

No Mirka - bonitation of Mery is only one part of the bigger problems we have at the moment... And she is the best example... I didn't saw her for a long time... but I read on your pages she has problems to move propertly because her back legs 'tangle' when she move. So I wondered how she can be P1 with such kind of movement problems...
And you must understand my worries about the breed because she is not the only example when dog with problems (not exactly HD but with slack ligaments) get nice note during the bonitation... Just see the famous case in Czech Republic about the bonitation in Prague I mentioned... ASK someone from CZ - they will tell you the story....

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

Your hypothesis of "if I had a female" and "then it would be disqualifying fault" have no basis on real actions or facts. You have accused me and my kennel publicly and have absolutely no ground for it, except for your hatred and paranoia that everything is about you.

Mirka, before you write about paranoia please ask finally somebody from the Czech breeding comittee about the problems I mentioned - about dogs which pass bonitations without any problems even if they have DISQUALIFYING FAULTS I listed...

[Liesbeth]

Hi,

I just started to read this discussion, so I'm giving some comments on things that are written some time ago...

Originally Posted by Margo

OK, my question is now about Mery... I know you are not able to breed with her because of the strong dysplasia but bonitation code say NOTHING about dysplasia... It has no influence on it..
.
Were you never astonished about the excellent P1 note Mery get? During the youth presentation in Czech Republic she get P5 (note "good") because of the really visible problems with movement. The problem didn't disappeared and on your web page you wrote nice articles about hydroterapie which is necessary because of the problems with movement Mery has...

Look, despite of the movement problems which she has she get without any problems the EXCELLENT note during the bonition in Belgium... Just perfect code... [-> "is there a different standard for CSW in Belgium?"]

Let's say you have an another female which has the same problems with the movement but they are caused not because of HD but slack ligaments. And the problems are visible... You see - with such female you would get perfect code and breed with her even if it is serious DISQUALIFYING FAULT....
Did you really never wondered about the result you get?

I really like to say that at the time of our bonitation, Ali (Mery) was doing fine and her movements were a lot better (even very good), probably because of the hydrotherapy. I never noticed the 'walking-problems' of Mery before. Only during our last event (training for -right- the bonitation) I saw that she walked like... you know... a dog with HD.
And a bonitation is like a dog show: it shows the dog on one particular day, on one moment,... So maybe Mery's movement was fine during the minute she had to show her movements!

While writing this, I start wondering for whom or for what I'm telling all this... It is completely off-topic, but I feel the urge to share this with all of you. It's insane that people start to 'attack' each other personally. I'm on nobody's side (I say this because it feels like there are different, opposite, 'sides'), but please stop saying all these things about each other. As far as I know Mirka, she only tries to do her best for the breed, in every possible way. And I guess that's the same for Margo and all others here on the forum. So why can't we JUST TALK/DISCUSS without all the other crap... This is worse then politics Or wait... this IS politics

But I'll continue reading. There is also useful information about the bonitation hidden behind the insults etc...

Liesbeth

[Dharkwolf]

You know, some time ago this would have made me angry. Now it just makes me wonder.

Here in Belgium the club is trying very hard to get together a simple way of getting a good breeding standard so as to ensure the breed does well and does not degenerate. This is not as simple as it sounds - there are a lot of things which need to be explained and there is clearly a transition which needs to be done to get to a point where breeding is of the highest quality.

One of the things which I have personally learned through watching the process of discussing all these breeding rules is that you need to be open to criticism and to be ready to answer the questions from people - why are things done like this and not like that? Why is this a good dog and not that one?

The questions are not always easy to answer, and sometimes you realise that a mistake has been made, by you or by someone else. When that happens it's best to accept it, correct it if possible, and then move on.

Here we ask a very simple question - why was a certain dog with qualities which seem strange get a certain bonitation code. There might be a perfectly good explanation for it - but an agressive response does not help to advance things. It could be that a mistake was made somewhere or that the bonitation committee decided for whatever reasons to give that code. The reason doesn't matter, but the agressive response that a simple question has received has made me very sad - because it doesn't help anything or anyone.

One has to remember where these things come from. There is the bonitation yes, which is an evaluation against the properties of the standard. Though there are probably different ways of actually doing a bonitation there is only one standard it is the FCI standard and it clearly states:

SIZE AND WEIGHT :
Height at withers : Dogs at least 65 cm,
Bitches at least 60 cm.
Weight : Dogs at least 26 kg,
Bitches at least 20 kg.

So the question of why a dog which fails to comply with the criteria which are clearly defined in the standard is judged to be excellent for breeding (that is what P1 means) is not an unfair one and deserves a simple answer. Could we please have one?

There is the question of how important is really the height for breeding. You need to understand that the height of an animal (or person) is, genetically speaking, a very complex trait. There are at least 20 genes which are known to influence height in humans (and everything indicates at least as many in dogs). The genetic complexity of the height, along with the ease of measuring the phenotype (that is the actual height of the dog) makes it an excellent marker to see if a dog is conforming to everything else it should conform to according to its ancestry. Therefore the question of height is important because it's an easy and obvious way of knowing if the breeding stock is drifting significantly from a genetic point of view from the intended breed characteristics which cannot be so easily measured.


I know it's a little distasteful, but I would need to go back to this point:

Originally Posted by Margo

Mirka - let it be.... Or should we start topic about Czech bonitations... And number of Czech breeders which breed with dogs with serious disqalification faults... EVEN YOU....

This is a very strong personal attack against the integrity of a breeder Margo. In our case (for those of you who don't know it, Mirka is my wife) it should not be difficult to check - we've owned only two females and there has only been a single litter from our elder female. She's Cira Křivoklátský Atos (link to the wolfdog database: http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/543) and her bonitation code is A66,5 E3 K1 M5 Oi R1 P5 - not the prettiest of codes, but certainly not one with disqualifying faults. You have met the dog on several occasions Margo so if you could please explain which disqualifying faults you are referring to I would be very interested. If it was simply anger and frustration speaking (which happens) a simple retraction of the statement would also be most welcome.