Health results (also DM!!) in the Wolfdog.org database

[loco]

Maybe you also can give HD/ED results based on the test off the parents ???

Just no result without a official test result .
Otherwise we are back to the Fairytales again .

[woland77]

This choice is wrong from scientific point view, and agaist international accreditation rule's.
Between Mendel laws and and the exact match of a gene transmitted, thera are human hand, and potential error, or mistake.
Is for this than International Accreditation Law ask for every animal (not only dog), ufficial test result. Only with this rules genetic selection can be free from mistake,fraud.

[saschia]

What is also important - and especially now - is to keep in consideration that you can infer the genetics of a pup from the official results of it's ancestors only if you are sure about the parentage. Because otherwise all Czechoslovak wolfdogs are still BB in theory. And of course, it does not rule out mutations.

[koboldine]

I don't think that this decision is wise.
From scientific point of view - it's deadly wrong, because genetic rules are figured out by human are not nature's rules, neccessarily.
There still is a chance that genes undergo mutation - in either way.

Furthermore, it will include - and exclude - potential breeding "material" only just because of assumption.
And it will not force people to pay for an official test, on the contrary, why take (and pay for) a test if my dog is already marked as N/? - when it's enough to breed with...

You have put so many hours and work into this data base - with this decision it will become less valueable, less reliable. That would be a great loss for our breed.

Please, at least re-think this decision, I know this is a private page and data base but you have many users who - like you - are interested in the future of the Czech.Wolfdogs.

[admin]

Originally Posted by koboldine

I don't think that this decision is wise.
From scientific point of view - it's deadly wrong, because genetic rules are figured out by human are not nature's rules, neccessarily.
There still is a chance that genes undergo mutation - in either way.

OFFA tested about 20.000 dogs - there was not even ONE muttation. It is why they give certificates for the puppies that they are "free" when the parents are tested and free.

It is made by the most known laboratory. Believe me - they would not make it of they will have ANY doubts that it is ok.

Originally Posted by saschia

What is also important - and especially now - is to keep in consideration that you can infer the genetics of a pup from the official results of it's ancestors only if you are sure about the parentage. Because otherwise all Czechoslovak wolfdogs are still BB in theory. And of course, it does not rule out mutations.

Yes, thats right. And especially the "unofficial" results can help to correct it. We had some cases where the puppies of a DM/DM dog get the result N/N. Almost nobody cared about it - they were sure that it is OK (because of "mutation"). But it was NOT. In all every case it was mistake made by the laboratory.
Another possible explanation of such cases is that the parentage is not OK.
If the owners have "unofficial" information which will be different than the results they will receive it can force them to make more investigation - to test the parentage or to repeat the DM-test. If will help to clear such cases.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Admin

Yes, thats right. And especially the "unofficial" results can help to correct it. We had some cases where the puppies of a DM/DM dog get the result N/N. Almost nobody cared about it - they were sure that it is OK (because of "mutation"). But it was NOT. In all every case it was mistake made by the laboratory.

Well, the probability of revert mutation (one from wrong to the right allelle) really is infinitisimmal. But, mutation from right to wrong is possible, although usually not recognized by standardized tests (the one which test for a certain mutation, which is easier than to sequence whole gene of interest to see if abnormalities apper). So you can explain a sudden presence of new phenotype by a mutation, although the probability is still very small.

What I could agree with would be not "DM/N, unofficial result", but "this dog should test DM/N based on parent/offspring results".

[koboldine]

Originally Posted by Admin

OFFA tested about 20.000 dogs - there was not even ONE muttation. It is why they give certificates for the puppies that they are "free" when the parents are tested and free.

It is made by the most known laboratory. Believe me - they would not make it of they will have ANY doubts that it is ok.

I wouldn´t dare to doubt that a huge laboratory can handle their results in that way. But this is not OFFA - so the results you receive have been archieved by many laboratories, they submitt the results to the owner, who then decides if they are published here, right? So there are officially recognized laboratories for testing DM and Dwarfism - and there are others. Although in this data base the results of both are published, they are marked as inofficial, when the laboratory is not recognized for DM and Dwarfism testing.
Nevertheless, they are taken for granted when someone assumes the genetic disposition of their parents and their puppies.

IF you really want to draw conclusions from results, shouldn´t you conclude from official results only?

I think it gets al little ... confusing for interested people - or do we now have four categories:
1) Tested by recognized laboratory,
2) assumption due to parents/puppies Test of recognized laboratory,
3) tested but not officially recognized,
4) assumption due to parents/puppies Test of NON-recognized laboratory?

What will happen, when I get a result for my dog - and it does not fit into the assumption of the "results" of its parents? Will there be doubt about my dogs results (lets say they are from a recognized laboratory) or will the doubt affect the parents and the parent-ship? Do I then have to take a parentage test - or does the breeder have to do it?

Does this lead to genetic "fingerprint" of all dogs to proof their pedigree?
(I don´t think that´s bad BUT ...)

[admin]

Originally Posted by koboldine

they submitt the results to the owner, who then decides if they are published here, right?

NO - OFFA publish EVERYTHING on their website. Nothing is hidden. It is the difference between OFFA and other "European" laboratories who ALLOW to hide the results.

But I'm sure the publishing of the information like we do know do not make some breeders happy and it will cause huge resistance. It is known that the breeders who breed will DM/DM dogs and do not make any selection hide the results of their dogs. And they are big opponents of publishing the DM-results of the parents basing on the results of the puppies.
But the question is if we will help the dishonest and unreliable breeders OR
if we help to improve the breed and the honest breeders. For me the answer is very easy...

IF you really want to draw conclusions from results, shouldn´t you conclude from official results only?

But it is what we do!

I think it gets al little ... confusing for interested people - or do we now have four categories:
1) Tested by recognized laboratory,
2) assumption due to parents/puppies Test of recognized laboratory,
3) tested but not officially recognized,
4) assumption due to parents/puppies Test of NON-recognized laboratory?

No - only two. Official - with written name of the laboratory which made the test. And unofficial.

What will happen, when I get a result for my dog - and it does not fit into the assumption of the "results" of its parents? Will there be doubt about my dogs results (lets say they are from a recognized laboratory) or will the doubt affect the parents and the parent-ship? Do I then have to take a parentage test - or does the breeder have to do it?

You must clear it with you breeder or without him. There are two possibilities if the results do not match - the parentage is wrong: thge parents of your puppy are different than written in the pedigree. OR: the DM test (of the puppy or (of one) of the parents) is wrong. I can not say you who must make what. But there will be a mistake.

It is exactly why some breeders which were mentioned on the forum for cheating the pedigrees do not want to make the DM test - exactly because they can give the prove that they cheated the pedigrees...

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

This choice is wrong from scientific point view, and agaist international accreditation rule's.
Between Mendel laws and and the exact match of a gene transmitted, thera are human hand, and potential error, or mistake.
Is for this than International Accreditation Law ask for every animal (not only dog), ufficial test result. Only with this rules genetic selection can be free from mistake,fraud.

Basing on this we can not publish ANY results because even the "official" results are not 100% sure. There is a problem with the OFFICIAL laboratory Vetlabor which made mistakes while testing the probes. But EVEN the Laboklin makes mistakes and this week we received new results of a dog whose owners received the results N/N but the dogs is N/DM (he was tested for MH instead of DM).

If we can not be sure that even the OFFICIAL results are 100% clear of "human hand" why we should post ANY results?
Remember that the same apply to HD results - they are ALWAYS subjective. Sure they meassure the angles but still there is sometimes even 20% differences between vets in one country.


You will NEVER be sure if a person will not make a "mistake". There will be always a small percetage of possible errors.

But even OFFA makes the same as we do - if the parents are tested by OFFA the puppies are treated the same way like we do. If there is a parentage test the puppies will even receive OFFICIAL certificartes WITHOUT testing. And they really know that they are doing...

About mutations: they exist but the possibility that they appear is so small that they are pased over. Only here of forum people try to explain every abnormality with "mutattion".

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

Basing on this we can not publish ANY results because even the "official" results are not 100% sure. There is a problem with the OFFICIAL laboratory Vetlabor which made mistakes while testing the probes. But EVEN the Laboklin makes mistakes and this week we received new results of a dog whose owners received the results N/N but the dogs is N/DM (he was tested for MH instead of DM).

If we can not be sure that even the OFFICIAL results are 100% clear of "human hand" why we should post ANY results?
Remember that the same apply to HD results - they are ALWAYS subjective. Sure they meassure the angles but still there is sometimes even 20% differences between vets in one country.


You will NEVER be sure if a person will not make a "mistake". There will be always a small percetage of possible errors.

But even OFFA makes the same as we do - if the parents are tested by OFFA the puppies are treated the same way like we do. If there is a parentage test the puppies will even receive OFFICIAL certificartes WITHOUT testing. And they really know that they are doing...

About mutations: they exist but the possibility that they appear is so small that they are pased over. Only here of forum people try to explain every abnormality with "mutattion".

Nothing are 100% clear, but if we publish only official test, one for each dog, step by step, any errors will be revealed soon. If we start to deduce the transmission of genes, as Mendelian, we can make mistake to people of Wolfodog. Off course ufficial aboratory cane make error, but laboratory must answer for their mistakes, in law contest. This is not my think, is International Rules of Accreditation about zootechnical lab.
You can ask here: is official italian istitution for laboratory rules on Breeding, human healt, food and more...and they take international rules...
we have those information from this institut..

[mijke]

Originally Posted by koboldine

….. Furthermore, it will include - and exclude - potential breeding "material" only just because of assumption.
And it will not force people to pay for an official test, on the contrary, why take (and pay for) a test if my dog is already marked as N/? - when it's enough to breed with...

Originally Posted by woland77

Nothing are 100% clear, but if we publish only official test, one for each dog, step by step, any errors will be revealed soon. If we start to deduce the transmission of genes, as Mendelian, we can make mistake to people of Wolfodog. Off course ufficial aboratory cane make error, but laboratory must answer for their mistakes, in law contest...

I agree with you

I am not happy at all with publishing unofficial test results for several reasons that others did already mention.
And I also am not happy with labs that accept swabs of owners (without checking chip by an independent vet) for DNA tests…. (Owners can make mistakes and breeders have more chances to cheat)

And based on this a lot more mistakes can be made (wrong conclusions) with publishing unofficial results

[buidelwolf]

Strange,

Unofficial testresults are published but I uploaded the official DM (N/N) testresult of my dog several times past weeks in PDF (also sent it by e-mail) and still no mention of it. Not really motivating.

[jmvdwiel]

the result is visable at you dogs profile , so thank you admin should be your phrase

[admin]

Originally Posted by mijke

I am not happy at all with publishing unofficial test results for several reasons that others did already mention.
And I also am not happy with labs that accept swabs of owners (without checking chip by an independent vet) for DNA tests…. (Owners can make mistakes and breeders have more chances to cheat)

And based on this a lot more mistakes can be made (wrong conclusions) with publishing unofficial results

There are several points:

First - the simple Mendel law allow to "verify" the results. If the breeder will cheat it wil be very fast discovered. And believe me: IF such case will happend I will publish officially the name of the cheater on every version of forum.

Second - cheating can be done in EVERY case. Remember that some breeders are vets and some have friends who are vets. There are always people who will be prepared to cheat. Why it is still allowed by GSD to cheat if all the dogs must be DNA checked? But as I wrote before - it will be discovered sooner or later.


The official results were not published "just like this" - for the whole time it was included in the database but not published. And there was not even one case where the published results were wrong - all the unofficial results were confirmed. The only mistakes which we fixed were... exactly the results made by the "official" laboratories.

And last but not least: you know that some breeders who have the biggest problems will never test/publish the results of their dogs. And the human mind is made this way that everything what is not tested is kept for "clear". Publishing the results basing on the results of the offsprings can significant imprive the health of the breed even if some breeders will not "cooperate".

And for the end: exactly thanks to the laboratories who do not give official certificates it was possible to make the selection who will help us to reduce the number of dogs "at risk". A large number of dogs was tested and the results are as good as bu the official laboratories. Tested dogs mean that it is possible for breeders to make the selection. If we would base ONLY on the official results made by the official laboratories we could already NOW stop ANY selelction - the illness will spread because before almost nobody was interested to test their dogs.
The best example is the test for dwarfism - the price reduced the amount of tested dogs to minimum. No good selection can be made and because of it no selection is done. The possibility to test the dogs didn't changed ANYTHING. And it will be so till one of the universities will develop another project who will test dogs for free (as it is done with DM) or for a very small amount of money....
Sad but true.

So the disscussion about publishing of the unofficial results and accepting only the one made by "official" laboratories is the disscussion between the if we will make the sepection OR NOT....

[koboldine]

Originally Posted by Admin

And last but not least: you know that some breeders who have the biggest problems will never test/publish the results of their dogs. And the human mind is made this way that everything what is not tested is kept for "clear". Publishing the results basing on the results of the offsprings can significant imprive the health of the breed even if some breeders will not "cooperate".

THIS is an argument - using this to force everyone to test - do you think it´ll work?

Originally Posted by Admin

And it will be so till one of the universities will develop another project who will test dogs for free (as it is done with DM) or for a very small amount of money....

Please tell me which project and university does the DM Test for free - and how can one send in the samples?
Because I´d like to test, but it is quite expensive...and my dog ist not supposed to have any offsprings, therefore I waited...

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

Nothing are 100% clear, but if we publish only official test, one for each dog, step by step, any errors will be revealed soon. If we start to deduce the transmission of genes, as Mendelian, we can make mistake to people of Wolfodog. Off course ufficial aboratory cane make error, but laboratory must answer for their mistakes, in law contest.

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

[koboldine]

Originally Posted by Admin

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

Admin, is this about trust?

Sorry - I just ask because obviously there are people who cheat - or worse - within this breed, but are those more important than the ones who keep everything straight and stick to the rules?

No offence

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

If i buy a puppy that i think is n/n by result deduced by result of parents, information published by Wolfdog and after i test my dog and is n/dm, the Lab the laboratory has no responsibility towards me (but Lab have responsibility toward to owner of the parents of puppy).
Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut). Of course you can have different think about rules, but i write one time more than here is not problema about my idea and your idea...is a problem of existing regulations!

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

If i buy a puppy that i think is n/n by result deduced by result of parents, information published by Wolfdog and after i test my dog and is n/dm, the Lab the laboratory has no responsibility towards me (but Lab have responsibility toward to owner of the parents of puppy).
Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut). Of course you can have different think about rules, but i write one time more than here is not problema about my idea and your idea...is a problem of existing regulations!

You are totally wrong - nobody tells you that the results are OFFICIAL. Nobody cheats you.

YOU as breeder has the whole responsibility. Nobody FORCE you to use a dog with unofficial results. If you do not belive in them JUST DO NOT PAY ANY ATTENTION to them. If you want to use dogs ONLY with the ofiicial results - just DO IT. It is only up to you. Some people find the results usefull, some not. We have democration.
It is CLEARLY written that there results are not official and it will be explained that they base on the results of the parents/offsprings.

You write about the responsibility of official laboratories. WHICH ONE? There is the possiblity that due to their mistake there will be some DM/DM puppies born. What will do the laboratory??? Replace the puppies? What will they do in the case when the dogs will get ill? CURE them? There is not cure for DM... Pay you the money? Sorry - money is not important if you have a ill dog which you can not help.

You criticize the unoficial results but in MANY cases they can force puppy owners to test their dogs. They can be informed about the danger EVEN if the dog already died or the breeder is hiding the results.
The unofficial results showed for example that one of the most popular Italian stud dogs - Charon - was DM carrier. For years there were dogs who were put down because of "misterous" reasons. Now the offspring owners know how to prevent it - what they must take into consideration.
The same with Crying Wolf dogs - most of them are DM/DM or DM carriers. Till now only two of them are N/N. The breeder seems not to be interested in any tests. But the puppy owners can do something with it and they can see the problem and prevent that there will be no more dogs born who will suffer like Forrest.

Do you think it is wrong what we do? Should we really help to hide the DM-dogs?

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

Who will cover the damage to me?? Wolfdog Administration?? You don't have any title to publish information if is not certified by a responsible body to do so (Ufficial Lab, accredited by international accrediation institut).

I checked the "responsibility" of the official laboratories - you have written them on the pages which you received with the results:

The lab is accredited according to DIN ISO 17025 (AKS-PL-20922)
for the services mentioned above. Responsibility for the
correctness of animal ID data corresponding with the samples
lies in the hands of the sender. Warranty cannot be accepted.
Claim for damages is limited to the amount of the invoice for
the performed lab test if not otherwise regulated by law.

I think it ends the whole disscussion...