Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[Dayen]

Purely in theoretic part, since we never seen brown CSW before.
Carriers of brown color are quite easy to find by DNA test. Maybe it could help to consider this:

Brown dog (bb) + CSW (BB) = all puppies are born black pigmented and all are carriers of brown gene (Bb).

Black pigmented dog with brown gene (Bb) + CSW (BB) = all puppies are black pigmented, some puppies are carriers of brown gene (Bb), some not (BB).

Bb + Bb = 25% BB, 50% Bb, 25% bb

[saschia]

You would have to know where to look. If the genetics of red/brown color in wolfdogs was so simple, then finding the mutation would be as "easy" as finding the one for dwarfism... And I do not think there would be enough funding for the research...

[Dayen]

Saschia, I don't know. This whole situation is weird.
I've never seen brown European Wolf, CSW or German Shepherd. That indicates CSWs are BB.

Maybe there is some exception for brown/red sable as for example I know the exception for two black&tans to sometimes have puppy with different colour. So I could be wrong.
But system really works so simple for solid brown colour/pigmentation, as far as I've seen with my other breed.
Maybe I'm doing too big jump from solid to sable colour, but I'm sure about solid color and pigmentation should go with it.

[jefta]

Originally Posted by saschia

You would have to know where to look. If the genetics of red/brown color in wolfdogs was so simple, then finding the mutation would be as "easy" as finding the one for dwarfism... And I do not think there would be enough funding for the research...

This is so easy and universal for all dogs Test is avalible. I cant link here but for example in DDC VETERINARY test for one locus (we are intrested in one locus- "B") cost 58 $

[yukidomari]

Martiou, is the photo you posted a photo of the actual dogs in question, or just two red Saarloos to show the color?

[saschia]

jefta, I looked at the web and the coat color test is only for few breeds and I would not know which locus to test for.

B Locus (DNA markers tested – S41C, P345Pel, Q331X)
Associated with the presence of chocolate (also commonly referred to as liver or brown). The bb genotype usually results in a chocolate coat phenotype and liver noses among yellow dogs.

How would this gene work in agouti-colored dogs (like wolfdogs)? The liver-colored nose is not enough to say that this is the gene of interest. You may ascertain it by crossing a liver-nosed wolfdog with liver-nosed labrador and look at the noses of the puppies (but that would be cruelty in my opinion, so please do not try it ;o))

OK, I was mistaken about the funding, apparently.

[jefta]

Agouti is determinated by different locus "Aw"

csv are AwAwBB, this dogs are AwAwbb

[elf]

The agouti gene would control where the pigments are disposited, the dilution one would transform black to blue (not black to red/liver) ; so here what we see is different, it's the red/liver from bb.

For Saarloos pictures, here are the brown Saarloos I have in the DB SWD Forest-Brown, click on the dog name, then on the next page on "Pictures of this dog", you will see picture of the dog if any found (bad request msg otherwise).

[saschia]

Yes elf, but is it the same gene? Is it the same mutation? If yes, why is it not offered for huskies/malamutes?

[indiananous]

http://www.chiens-de-france.com/site...RUBRIQUE=31468


After seeing the pictures of these puppies, and having used the ascendants of these dogs I am ready to do the necessary tests on my marriage in order to know if Saarloos were used to make these lines.
And as you stop taking us for idiots.

Nadia CLEMENT
Elevage des plaines de l'Est

[Gypsy Wolf]

There are also two other genetic "issues" to consider... the first is spontaneous mutation - for additional information on this Google "Panda SHepherds" - pure West German highline GSDs that produced white-patched pups - one parent had a spontaneous mutation for this and it is currently being studied by University of California. ANother is "Chimerism" - Google "Chimera" where unexpected DNA plays a role - brindle colored horses, for instance, and it has been seen in humans, where a woman gave birth to her SISTER'S offspring (the baby she concieved and gave birth to was NOT genetically related to her but to a "sister" whose genes she carries as the "sister" was absorbed by her in the fetal stage).
Just because wild wolves, GSDs, etc. do not display mutations of color does not mean they do not exist in the gene pool.
Remember all dogs descend from the wolf, so there is the potential for anything in the genetics. Pushed-in faces are not seen in the wolf or GSD but is seen in wolf descendents like the Bully breeds, showing that wolf genetics are indeed a maleable "material" and likely to have spontaneous mutations from time to time...

[wolfin]

a little streng when this "mutation" have not only mutation in collor and pigment but and in anatomy

[Priska182]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

There are also two other genetic "issues" to consider... the first is spontaneous mutation - for additional information on this Google "Panda SHepherds" - pure West German highline GSDs that produced white-patched pups - one parent had a spontaneous mutation for this and it is currently being studied by University of California. ANother is "Chimerism" - Google "Chimera" where unexpected DNA plays a role - brindle colored horses, for instance, and it has been seen in humans, where a woman gave birth to her SISTER'S offspring (the baby she concieved and gave birth to was NOT genetically related to her but to a "sister" whose genes she carries as the "sister" was absorbed by her in the fetal stage).

Thanks! the Panda Shepherds case is really interesting!...

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by saschia

jefta, I looked at the web and the coat color test is only for few breeds and I would not know which locus to test for.


How would this gene work in agouti-colored dogs (like wolfdogs)? The liver-colored nose is not enough to say that this is the gene of interest. You may ascertain it by crossing a liver-nosed wolfdog with liver-nosed labrador and look at the noses of the puppies (but that would be cruelty in my opinion, so please do not try it ;o))

There are two different types of pigmentation; eumelanin (black/--> blue or brown) and pheomelanin (red/cream). The gene (bb) that causes black pigmentation to turn into brown (liver), only affects eumelanin. So this basically means that whatever the colour of the dog is, all the normally black areas in it's skin & coat are brown. So if the dog would normally be agouti ("wolf grey"), with genotype bb it will end up looking like the forrest brown Saarloos. Or if a dog would normally be solid black like Labrador, with genotype bb it will turn into solid brown.

Here are two sites that explain it all more spesificly:
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net...cs/pigment.htm
and
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/liver.htm

Eumelanin affects skin aswell as hair, but pheomelanin only affects hair.
Some exceptionally reddish wolves do exist, but they always have black skin pigmentation (nose, lips, nails etc), that shows it is only more "pheomelanistic" individual than usual. Here are a couple of pics by photographer Lassi Rautiainen. They are wild Finnish wolves. Wolves of this color are found more frequently in eastern Finland and in Russia.
As you can see, they still have black pigmentation and black hair tips allthough their coat is overall more pheomelanistic.





But whenever a canine has also brown skin pigmentation, it must be genotyped bb.

German Shepherds have brown/liver (bb), allthough it is disqualifying trait due to the standard aswell as white (ee) and blue (dd).
http://www.4gsd.net/colours.html
It is possible for all breeds that are derived from GSD, to carry these genes.
But like someone allready said, it would be likely to have happened more often in CsV allready, if they would have had the brown (bb) gene in them from the beginning.
So it is more realistic to think that it derives from alot more recent heritage; propably from last decades mixing with Saarloos.

[Silvester]

Originally posted by Jennin Lauma :

"It is possible for all breeds that are derived from GSD, to carry these genes.
But like someone allready said, it would be likely to have happened more often in CsV allready, if they would have had the brown (bb) gene in them from the beginning.
So it is more realistic to think that it derives from a lot more recent heritage; propably from last decades mixing with Saarloos."

(Hmmm..."last decades ??" - Yeah may be - but may be more probably in some of last one or two generations before...! )

But very good informations ! The whole posting is very interesting especially also what was told about "reddish" ( pheomelanistic ) wild wolves.

It´s quite probably that this kind of colour / pigmentation in nature is caused by inbreed in small population of wolves- like in Finland.

The pictures are great also ! I never saw photos of pheomelanistic wolves, ( and in comparison to normal coloured ones !) ...very well done !

Originally posted by Nebulosa:
"...but that maybe all the pups of one litter does not belong to the same father, in this case im not thinking about the possibilitie of cheating but remembering that the same litter can have 2 or more fathers depending on the ovulation of the female and when the male covered, also that we all know that wolfdogs are scape artists, much more when you have crazy males and a female in heat."

That is completely true also.

Best greetings, Silvester

[elf]

The wolves pictures are interesting but as said this is very different, those wolves are not bb, whereas the red puppies (not a single but 3) the breeder had are bb (more pictures at the bottom MLS) , CSV is told to be BB so this gives that Thalia and Sibir are mixes.