The price of Populairity.

[Vaiva]

Hmm, just a topic for discussion - since how many offsprings a male could be called "popular sire" in a small breed like ours?

[draggar]

On the pedigree database Lance had 97 offspring but that's only the people who reigstered their puppies on the site. Right now most American lined GSDs are directly related to him (at least once). He could have easily sired hundreds and maybe even thousands of puppies.

A dog used that much, in any breed, can be very destructive to the breed. It limits the gene pool and all the "little" things start to pop out especially since it starts to get hard to avoid linebreeding. In a gene pool as small as the vlcak breed it could be devastating. What makes a gene pool healthy is diversity of good genetics.

As for numbers - vlcaks have a heat once a year (as far as I know) and their first heat is usually light. We can assume the good breeding years are 2,3,4,5. Maybe 6,7,8 if you push it. If someone is going to push one male this much then we can assume they'll try to get as much out of the female as possible, we'll say 2-7 (6 years inclusive). The average litter is 5 puppies. That's 30 puppies per female. That's a lot.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by draggar

As for numbers - vlcaks have a heat once a year (as far as I know) and their first heat is usually light. We can assume the good breeding years are 2,3,4,5. Maybe 6,7,8 if you push it. If someone is going to push one male this much then we can assume they'll try to get as much out of the female as possible, we'll say 2-7 (6 years inclusive). The average litter is 5 puppies. That's 30 puppies per female. That's a lot.

I meant "sire", not "dam" It is totally clear about females, but what about males?

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

I meant "sire", not "dam" It is totally clear about females, but what about males?

I know. I don't think the number of puppies that can be produced is limtied by the sire - he can be bred at any time (given time to replenish his sperm). Say, once a day. If you time it right with the females he could impregnate 2-3 dams a week (assuming at least 2 breedings per femal) and then when he's not in use you could freeze his sperm for even more matings later on. 8 weeks later that's about 15 puppies a week (on average - assuming on aveage 5 puppies epr litter) - 60 a month. I'm not sure how far "spread out" the vlcak heat cycle is but let's assume October (based on when Luna was born) to February = 5 months so 300 puppies a year.

Plus, a male could breed for a lot longer than a female - some GSD males are bred past 10 and can start to be bred at a year.

Assuming you just breed and breed and breed and breed you could be looking at 3,000 puppies over the lifespan of a male (the number can vary greatly depending on a large variety of factors) - and that's not including any frozen semen.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by draggar

I know. I don't think the number of puppies that can be produced is limtied by the sire - he can be bred at any time (given time to replenish his sperm).

Seems like we do not understand each other. I am able to count myself, thanks
I am just interested when a male could be considered "popular sire" in our breed. When he has 5 litters? 10? 15?

[draggar]

Yep, we didn't sorry. I'm a math geek at times.

I also wonder when the "popular" will turn into "damaging to the gene pool".

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by draggar

I also wonder when the "popular" will turn into "damaging to the gene pool".

Yes, this is exactly what interests me. The danger of damaging the gene pool is big, but on the other hand in our breed one can often meet a problem, when interested in some popular stud, who is no longer alive: if there is information about his offsprings, then you take the list of them, remove the ones, who come from dams, that do not suit your interests, then remove the ones without HD, then the ones, that did not attend any shows/bonitation (simply have no breeding rights) and... you have like one or two males from a "very popular stud"... So what numbers are considered "still worth using a stud", and what are "it's enought"?

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

I am just interested when a male could be considered "popular sire" in our breed. When he has 5 litters? 10? 15?

A genetic doctor ones did answer that question on another topic...

For are breed he did say 45 offspring for a male dog, more offspring’s than that would probably do more damage than good, even if the stud was a very good and healthy dog.

Best regards / Mikael

[yukidomari]

So what's the difference between "popular sire" and "foundation sire"? Are all foundation sires by default popular sires, but not all popular sires are foundation sires?