Is the Czechoslovakian wolfdog breed for me?

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Rona

I'm afraid I don't follow... what do you find strange or unusual with CSVs not eating more than they need?

Well, I would find that highly unusual, but from the completely opposite experience. Both my wolfdogs ate as much as was available. Both are/were food thieves. All my pups (the healthy ones) would almost inhale their food just to be sure that they don't miss any. I know only few wolfdogs that would not eat much and most of them would start eating as soon as in company of other wolfdogs as they knew that nothing would be left if they hesitated.

The only wolfdogs I know that are not eating and are not persuaded by competition are dwarfs, and there it is part of their disease... For some young ones it may be a distraction from much more interesting things like chewing and fighting/playing.

I would say that high pray/food drive is a typical trait in wolfdogs. But you have to know how to utilize it.

The no fear of tiny places and dark and whatever is more difficult - you need to pick the right pup (inquisitive etc.) and then you need to socialize it a lot and make a good partnership and then you need to be lucky so that it does not have a bad experience... And because it is very active you need to bring it up properly, teach it to behave and obey. But than you'll have a wolfdog that is not afraid and trusts you enough that it would endure such unpleasant things.

I'd say wolfdogs are not for people who take the dog as a means to achieve something. If you want to get to a top of a big mountain, and you take a wolfdog, you may reach the top and see the beautiful sight, but you may also get to the top of the tree line and see that there is just too much fog and bad weather, and you just cannot go further, but you still have a great companion with you. So wolfdog is a way, and if that is what is important for you, go and get one. If the goal is more important, then wolfdog is not for you. You can take a wolfdog on a lift with you, but the wolfdog will not be the lift to the top.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by saschia

I know only few wolfdogs that would not eat much and most of them would start eating as soon as in company of other wolfdogs as they knew that nothing would be left if they hesitated. (...) I would say that high pray/food drive is a typical trait in wolfdogs. But you have to know how to utilize it.

Tina always ate all she was given, but Lorka leaves food when she's not hungry. When I want her to perform well at dog school she gets ... late dinner.

Originally Posted by saschia

I'd say wolfdogs are not for people who take the dog as a means to achieve something. If you want to get to a top of a big mountain, and you take a wolfdog, you may reach the top and see the beautiful sight, but you may also get to the top of the tree line and see that there is just too much fog and bad weather, and you just cannot go further, but you still have a great companion with you. So wolfdog is a way, and if that is what is important for you, go and get one. If the goal is more important, then wolfdog is not for you. You can take a wolfdog on a lift with you, but the wolfdog will not be the lift to the top.

Very wise words, Sashia. I agree 100%.

The most important thing when getting a wolfdog is to keep patient and humble. I really appreciate the approach of our present trainer. She says that teaching the owner how to work on the good relationship with a dog is far more important than training a dog for exams. If the relationship is correct, the exams (whatever one understands under this term) will be easy.

Finally, I found the answer - I stopped buying ready made 'dog treats' and simply started to dry my own meats.....

Jing, I'll send you a recipe for training treats I got from Margo. They work like magic

[Tarlanciel]

Originally Posted by Rona

Jing, I'll send you a recipe for training treats I got from Margo. They work like magic

Can i get it too?

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Rona

Jing, I'll send you a recipe for training treats I got from Margo. They work like magic

Thanks! Look forward to it!!

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by saschia

The only wolfdogs I know that are not eating and are not persuaded by competition are dwarfs, and there it is part of their disease...

Well, mine has little interest in food. He doesn't have competition since I don't have other dogs, but he only has the bowl for 15 minutes top, and if he doesn't eat he will see the bowl again the next day, with half its habitual content. And if he does not eat again he will see it the day after, with a quarter of its content, and so on. I also feed him only kibbles (I only use meat during training) an I don’t add anything to make it more tasty if he refuses the food in the bowl, and he knows it. But he often eats just enough to satisfy his hunger and leave the rest, or he won't eat at all if he is not hungry. He’s not even particularly interested in the meat I use during training sessions. Sometimes he accept it, other times he munches on it slowly, somewhat reluctantly, sometimes he just plainly refuses it and spits it out. And I can assure he is pretty healthy, he has always been like that with food.

On the contrary he has a high prey drive on balls and tugs, but I worked a lot on him to get him interested in playing with them since he was a pup. So I often use toys to reward him during training.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Fede86

Sometimes he accept it, other times he munches on it slowly, somewhat reluctantly, sometimes he just plainly refuses it and spits it out. And I can assure he is pretty healthy, he has always been like that with food.

So yours is an exceprion maybe? But I think that if he got competition, and food he likes, and maybe a lot of excercise he would eat differently. For example, i went hiking with a group of wolfdogs, one of them was a female that did not want to eat normally. But when she was on hikes with us, she ate quite well, especially after the first meal, which the other wolfdogs stole pretty soon (we let them to teach her). But when she returned home she stopped eating again. But when her owners moved to a house, she started to eat much better and even got a bit fat... So she was like Lorka maybe, not eating more than necessary.

Frei was raised on barf, so she does not like granules too much. So I used it when she had false pregnancy - she was ravenous, but the granules she did not like too much, and when I switched for low-calories granules instead of barf she stopped eating so much and was able to lose the weight soon without much more exercise.

But still, if I hold a piece of raw meat, she will try to anticipate my commands, just to get the treat as soon as possible. And if I have a peace of venison, her face tells "Please tell me to do something, so i can get the treat!"

But I am quite off topic now i think.

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by saschia

So yours is an exceprion maybe? But I think that if he got competition, and food he likes, and maybe a lot of excercise he would eat differently.

Yes he's probably an exception. I tried many different food, from cheese to raw meat of various kinds, to fish (which is the food he prefers) but when he is particularly concentrated on something or engaged in some intense activity he would refuse any food, he just brushes it off. Exercise is something he does daily, several hours a day, I don't think that's the problem. But yes, when we are with other dogs he does eat a lot more.

Anyway, in the end I find it difficult and unproductive to use food as a reward during training with him.

[IAmLisaP]

Originally Posted by Fede86

Well, mine has little interest in food. He doesn't have competition since I don't have other dogs, but he only has the bowl for 15 minutes top, and if he doesn't eat he will see the bowl again the next day, with half its habitual content. And if he does not eat again he will see it the day after, with a quarter of its content, and so on. I also feed him only kibbles (I only use meat during training) an I don’t add anything to make it more tasty if he refuses the food in the bowl, and he knows it. But he often eats just enough to satisfy his hunger and leave the rest, or he won't eat at all if he is not hungry. He’s not even particularly interested in the meat I use during training sessions. Sometimes he accept it, other times he munches on it slowly, somewhat reluctantly, sometimes he just plainly refuses it and spits it out. And I can assure he is pretty healthy, he has always been like that with food.

On the contrary he has a high prey drive on balls and tugs, but I worked a lot on him to get him interested in playing with them since he was a pup. So I often use toys to reward him during training.

I believe that if a dog has the potential for a high pray/ball drive that you can develop it! My mom has border collie mix that will chase and kill squirrels but doesn't care about toys. I feel that if i had known about dog training when we got her, I could of got her to play with toys. I probably still could but she is 8 years old and it doesn't seem important.

[Tassle]

It seems to me this thread has thrown up an interesting cross section
You May get a CSV who is Ball/toy driven
You May get one that is Food driven
You May get one who is Shy
You may get one going to work


...or you may not

I (possibly becasue I am a trainer) see all dogs as trainable, however with some breeds (or even individuals) you have to think outside the box. Finding your dogs 'on' switch is always the first (and sometimes most challenging) part of any training (finding an 'off' switch is another!!).
So I guess it comes down to the kind of trainer you are, how much of a challenge are you up for and how much are you willing to change your training ideas to suit the dog? as opposed to trying to change the dog to suit your ideas?

(this is my overall impression from this thread - so far )

[IAmLisaP]

Originally Posted by Tassle

It seems to me this thread has thrown up an interesting cross section
You May get a CSV who is Ball/toy driven
You May get one that is Food driven
You May get one who is Shy
You may get one going to work


...or you may not

I (possibly becasue I am a trainer) see all dogs as trainable, however with some breeds (or even individuals) you have to think outside the box. Finding your dogs 'on' switch is always the first (and sometimes most challenging) part of any training (finding an 'off' switch is another!!).
So I guess it comes down to the kind of trainer you are, how much of a challenge are you up for and how much are you willing to change your training ideas to suit the dog? as opposed to trying to change the dog to suit your ideas?

(this is my overall impression from this thread - so far )

Hahaha well as a trainer I am not set in one way of doing it. I feel that every dog is different and am open to all ideas and different way of training.
I am up for anything. The only thing that I'm not ready for training wise is a dog that is people aggressive. I was bit on the face as a child so I am nervous around super aggressive dogs (dogs properly trained in protection work are NOT aggressive, just for people who don't know ). I will get over that at some point!

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by IAmLisaP

Hahaha well as a trainer I am not set in one way of doing it. I feel that every dog is different and am open to all ideas and different way of training.
I am up for anything. The only thing that I'm not ready for training wise is a dog that is people aggressive. I was bit on the face as a child so I am nervous around super aggressive dogs (dogs properly trained in protection work are NOT aggressive, just for people who don't know ). I will get over that at some point!

you cannot guarantee that with any dog let alone a csv

[IAmLisaP]

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

you cannot guarantee that with any dog let alone a csv

I'm talking about an obvious people aggressive dogs. Like previous offenders. Dogs that have already attacked and injured people. If some one comes up to me with a fear aggressive dog I can deal with that, these ones don't "look" for fights(that have seen).

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Tassle

I (possibly becasue I am a trainer) see all dogs as trainable, however with some breeds (or even individuals) you have to think outside the box. Finding your dogs 'on' switch is always the first (and sometimes most challenging) part of any training (finding an 'off' switch is another!!).

That's what I was trying to say. But, if you want your dog to be trainable and be willing to enter tiny/dark spaces, you need not only good picking and persistence and out-of-the-box training technique, you also need luck, and that one no-one can guarantee. And, in my opinion, wolfdogs remember the bad things very well, so a string of bad luck can turn your well-socialized, inquisitive and well-behaved wolfdog pup to a shy and hysteric adolescent that you will need a lot of time and energy to bring back to what you had before. If one is not sure if wolfdog is the breed for them, I think it is better to anticipate bad luck and such, and be pleasantly surprised, than the other way around.

Maybe it is different in your country, but I am really sick of people who say wolfdogs are no good as working breed, just because they tried to get results in the same way as with GSD or, even worse, BS, and of course failed, and instead of trying different approach, they just got rid of the dog. And of people who tell you to get a nice breed if you come to a training with wolfdog. I mean, if you are willing to give away your present dog for a new one, just because this one is not progressing in the way you wanted, than wolfdog is not a breed for you. We have too much of this kind of approach here, so I rather scare a potential owners away. Wolfdogs can be taught to obey different people and to spend time with strangers and whatever, but they are essentially a one-person dogs.

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by saschia

That's what I was trying to say. But, if you want your dog to be trainable and be willing to enter tiny/dark spaces, you need not only good picking and persistence and out-of-the-box training technique, you also need luck, and that one no-one can guarantee. And, in my opinion, wolfdogs remember the bad things very well, so a string of bad luck can turn your well-socialized, inquisitive and well-behaved wolfdog pup to a shy and hysteric adolescent that you will need a lot of time and energy to bring back to what you had before. If one is not sure if wolfdog is the breed for them, I think it is better to anticipate bad luck and such, and be pleasantly surprised, than the other way around.

Maybe it is different in your country, but I am really sick of people who say wolfdogs are no good as working breed, just because they tried to get results in the same way as with GSD or, even worse, BS, and of course failed, and instead of trying different approach, they just got rid of the dog. And of people who tell you to get a nice breed if you come to a training with wolfdog. I mean, if you are willing to give away your present dog for a new one, just because this one is not progressing in the way you wanted, than wolfdog is not a breed for you. We have too much of this kind of approach here, so I rather scare a potential owners away. Wolfdogs can be taught to obey different people and to spend time with strangers and whatever, but they are essentially a one-person dogs.

i agree

although i would say,anyone with that mindset should not have any breed of dog.

your dog should be a companion and friend first and foremost, 'sports' or 'jobs' is an added bonus imo.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

although i would say,anyone with that mindset should not have any breed of dog.

I don't like this approach too, but for some people dog is a dog, not a partner. I do not judge them, they have their reasons, but such people should avoid wolfdogs, IMO.

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by saschia

That's what I was trying to say. But, if you want your dog to be trainable and be willing to enter tiny/dark spaces, you need not only good picking and persistence and out-of-the-box training technique, you also need luck, and that one no-one can guarantee. And, in my opinion, wolfdogs remember the bad things very well, so a string of bad luck can turn your well-socialized, inquisitive and well-behaved wolfdog pup to a shy and hysteric adolescent that you will need a lot of time and energy to bring back to what you had before. If one is not sure if wolfdog is the breed for them, I think it is better to anticipate bad luck and such, and be pleasantly surprised, than the other way around.

Maybe it is different in your country, but I am really sick of people who say wolfdogs are no good as working breed, just because they tried to get results in the same way as with GSD or, even worse, BS, and of course failed, and instead of trying different approach, they just got rid of the dog. And of people who tell you to get a nice breed if you come to a training with wolfdog. I mean, if you are willing to give away your present dog for a new one, just because this one is not progressing in the way you wanted, than wolfdog is not a breed for you. We have too much of this kind of approach here, so I rather scare a potential owners away. Wolfdogs can be taught to obey different people and to spend time with strangers and whatever, but they are essentially a one-person dogs.

I agree - I am learning about these dogs daily (on here). I do not count the Mutt I live with as I believe he takes after his 'other' side!

The time it takes for training has to be a factor - they do not seem to be a dog for people who want instant gratification (months) with regards to training, you would be more looking at long term (years).

CSVs are still rare over here, and (to my knowledge - although Tupac would know more) there are no pure bred who are actually working.

Maybe it is different where they are 'popular' but I guess the looks baring the passing resemblance to the GSD/BSD people assume the trainability will be the same.
From what I have seen they are intelligent - which should mean they can be trained. They have an athletic conformation which also sets them in good stead. However - their development seems quite different, the maturing time and sensitivities?

When I spoke to my old boss (a guy who was in the Czech Army in the 70's) and told him what I had - his instant response was very dismissive. He pretty much told me it was a waste of time, based on his experiences working with them in the Czech army, but I am guessing they were very much in their infancy at this point, and he was used to dogs who were 'easier'.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Tassle

Maybe it is different where they are 'popular' but I guess the looks baring the passing resemblance to the GSD/BSD people assume the trainability will be the same.

I agree!! Sometimes I think people [want to] assume CsVs are just "wolf grey" themed GSDs..

Besides.. there aren't two 'looks' to a Vlcak.."more GSD" or "more wolfish". The standard says 'similar to a wolf' - anything else is simply a Vlcak with not much type.

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by IAmLisaP

I believe that if a dog has the potential for a high pray/ball drive that you can develop it! My mom has border collie mix that will chase and kill squirrels but doesn't care about toys. I feel that if i had known about dog training when we got her, I could of got her to play with toys. I probably still could but she is 8 years old and it doesn't seem important.

but the same with 'hunting' is the same as the ball problem ime.. my wolfdog will only hunt 'seriously' if he thinks he will get it,and with as less energy used as possible.

i find i have to use a mixture of treats and toys depending on what we are trying to achieve.(although food is his primary motive lol)

he is loving agility!

eta...and there is no way my csv would run away from 'intruders'