DM Testresults

[Gia]

Yes, K-lee is carrier, but I think it's not right topic fot this discussion.
I did a DM test earlier, because Massimo asked me about it.

[Grin]

Ok, I understand.
Sorry for butting in.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Gia

I think it's not right topic fot this discussion.

Yes I agree 100%

And as nor Wolfdog.org or any Cs Club has DM or Dwarf as Demand for breeding (as I know) I think one can not demand info about it online

And if one really wants to know and the dogs are not on the test list, way not ask in PM ???

I see DM and Dwarf questions as off topic on a topic like this

If this is happening every time a breeder wants to tell something, I think very soon No breeder will want to tell anything online at all

Therefor I would kindly like to ask the Moderators if it is possible to put this all in a new topic (DM questions to breeders) And put ALLL the future DM questions to ALLL breeders there ???

Very best regards / Mikael

PS, I´m for testing, but against witch hunting, DS.

Witch hunt will not help or save are breed !

[Gia]

Mikael, you're right

So... Sister!!!!!!!!! Congratulations!!!!!!!! Your puppies are so cute!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kisses to all family from K-lee Vornja z Peronówki

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Gia

Yes, K-lee is carrier, but I think it's not right topic fot this discussion.

Of course it is not the right topic... All results are and will be published on Mijke's list and in the topic about DM results on the forum...

Massimo knew about it - but still he decided to post here his boorish question. It is topic of another kennel, of another country. It is VERY strange - but I think again some hidden motives and Massimo's personal fights are the reason for it...

Massimo, why do you ask about DM results Enor person who DO NOT OWN HIM? Maybe it would be great idea to ask about it HIS OWNER?.
Why do you ask about DM results breeders from Spain where no dogs has been tested till now and first they are looking for possibilities to make it? And everybody knows it.
Look - in Italy the tests are done for years. For years there are also dogs known which surfered from DM and they same which are related with your dogs. Why you still didn't tested your dogs? But you ask (or better said: require) from other to have their dogs testes already now...

[Nebulosa]

I sense that some gossips are being spreaded

[massimo]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Massimo knew about it - but still he decided to post here his boorish question. It is topic of another kennel, of another country. It is VERY strange - but I think again some hidden motives and Massimo's personal fights are the reason for it...

Massimo, why do you ask about DM results Enor person who DO NOT OWN HIM? Maybe it would be great idea to ask about it HIS OWNER?.
Why do you ask about DM results breeders from Spain where no dogs has been tested till now and first they are looking for possibilities to make it? And everybody knows it.
Look - in Italy the tests are done for years. For years there are also dogs known which surfered from DM and they same which are related with your dogs. Why you still didn't tested your dogs? But you ask (or better said: require) from other to have their dogs testes already now...

Look, if my questions are boorish..then I will stop asking questions, so you will all be happy.
I don't think you need my "support" or "contribution" anyway, there are enough little helpers...

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Massimo knew about it - but still he decided to post here his boorish question. It is topic of another kennel, of another country. It is VERY strange - but I think again some hidden motives and Massimo's personal fights are the reason for it...

Personal fights??

Since when I have personal fights with anybody on this thread? just because I asked a simple question...I got a whole tidewave of replies...so I am obliged to back off by the "stream".

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Massimo, why do you ask about DM results Enor person who DO NOT OWN HIM? Maybe it would be great idea to ask about it HIS OWNER?.
Why do you ask about DM results breeders from Spain where no dogs has been tested till now and first they are looking for possibilities to make it? And everybody knows it.

Funny.
If I am a breeder I have a female and I use a male.
I choose the male according to some criteria.
One of these is his health.
If I use him, I get info on his health, like DMA.
So , if Tuky used Enor, he could have asked about DMA results and so could know it, just like Ewa knew about the male she used.
But...these rules apply ONLY when we care right?
If we DONT CARE, then this applies to all the others.
Margo, do YOU care?
Does WOFLDOG.ORG site CARE?
I don't fight anybody.
I just ask you to CARE more about DMA and to test your dogs and to breed responsibly.
Are you (all breeders) doing this?
I honestly don't think so...More than ME witchhunting others it seems that there is a big Tabu on this argument, so the best I can do is to be silent...
All I ask for is health info on dogs...on super dogs, on best litters...but this seems not to be a nice argument.
How many litters published on this site have DMA results?
OPS, sorry, i did it again...i am just a booring italian...cannot keep my mouth shut.

[z Peronówki]

Massimo but why you are affraid of publishing the results? Oliver was used and it could safe a lot of work. His result is also very important for his puppy owners. And Lunatica - it doesn't matter that she is not for breeding - her result would be for sure interesting for Edith and other dogs from this line.
I know "carriers" or "affected" dogs can be reason for (similar) insinuations. But only if everybody will start to publish the results the breeders fights will stop...

Originally Posted by Massimo

How many litters published on this site have DMA results?

It is exactly the witch hunt... The idea of DM tests is new - it will take YEARS before we will have here all litters tested for DM. The same was with HD. ED is still "introduced". Why do you think it will be different with DM - that it will be done within few months?

Another fact which makes me laught: the "discovery" of some people that such problem exists... And the big panic right now....

1) people always forget that "affected" dogs not always get ill - by many the illness will never "show up"
2) people still forget that "free" dogs ALSO can get problems with movement because there are more illnesses similar to DM
3) people forget that there is not a problem with DM but problem with lines where DM appears by pretty young dogs - it means lines which have not only DM genes but also genes "activating" this ilness

Sorry but for many years I was showing dogs which have problems to move properly... Which had "bad movement" already at the age of 4-5 years... Sure they were not moving like Forrest on the movie but some symptoms were visible... But no - nobody is interested in looking if the dog is healthy. The most important was that the dog has nice head and some show titles...
Now they start panic - Huston, we have a problem.

On the other side - I saw some "affected" dogs which are 12, 13, 14 years old now. For this age they still move perfect - the DM you can see only by small "details". And I think it is the "typical" type of development of DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.... Even if the illness appears - it appears in the high age. Exactly because of it DM was "hidden" for so long time - everybody though that the "specific" movement of some old dogs is just the consequence of their age....

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

It is exactly the witch hunt... The idea of DM tests is new - it will take YEARS before we will have here all litters tested for DM. The same was with HD. ED is still "introduced". Why do you think it will be different with DM - that it will be done within few months?

Another fact which makes me laught: the "discovery" of some people that such problem exists... And the big panic right now....

1) people always forget that "affected" dogs not always get ill - by many the illness will never "show up"
2) people still forget that "free" dogs ALSO can get problems with movement because there are more illnesses similar to DM
3) people forget that there is not a problem with DM but problem with lines where DM appears by pretty young dogs - it means lines which have not only DM genes but also genes "activating" this ilness

Sorry but for many years I was showing dogs which have problems to move properly... Which had "bad movement" already at the age of 4-5 years... Sure they were not moving like Forrest on the movie but some symptoms were visible... But no - nobody is interested in looking if the dog is healthy. The most important was that the dog has nice head and some show titles...
Now they start panic - Huston, we have a problem.

On the other side - I saw some "affected" dogs which are 12, 13, 14 years old now. For this age they still move perfect - the DM you can see only by small "details". And I think it is the "typical" type of development of DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.... Even if the illness appears - it appears in the high age. Exactly because of it DM was "hidden" for so long time - everybody though that the "specific" movement of some old dogs is just the consequence of their age....

This is exactly what I try to tell the Swedish Saarloos/Vlcak Club, but they want to demand DM testing and take all Carriers of breeding, YES ALL CARRIER OFF BREEDING !!!

I´m in the club board and I support a recommendation for DM and Dwarf test, but think a demand is not scientifically supported yet, as for to have a demand by the Swedish Kennel Club it must bee a "Breed Problem" like we have whit HD. And as I know DM is not that common.

We only have very few CsV in Sweden, (10) but only 5 registered
take away 50% DM carriers and we have maximum 3 dogs to breed on, take away lines whit HD, we have maximum 2, take away the ones that do not have ED test and we have 1, take away the ones that do not have a Bonitation code and we have 0... And how about bad character, bad movements, other diseases and shy dogs... Than we are about -15 CsV in Sweden for breeding Lets get a bus and go down Europe...

I´m the only one that did the DM test on my dogs, Hronec Taabernakkelin was a "Carrier", the response was PANNNNNNNNNNNNNIC !!!! DON’T BREED HE IS SICK , but I have a free female and understand we can not take 50% of the CsV OFF BREEDING...

Now some of them think I´m a bad breeder ... ...

But as I know, I’m the only one in Sweden that did HD, ED, DM, MH = Mental dog description. And as far as I know non did any of the test above yet...
Except one that did the MH.

Witch hunt has started before breeding has

Very best regards / Mikael

[Nebulosa]

Mikael, you touched exactly in the main problem of lay people and the hystery caused by them, which only hinder a possible future selection for ends with this problem without affect the genetic pool of the breed or the quality of the animals, thing wich requires a lot of patience, time, study and understanding.
with the reaction of some people we can arrive at the conclusion that not all people are prepared to receive real informations about health issues also as they are not prepared to work with it. To worst, we have also several people spreading gossips as using the results as excuse to accuse a breeder with the pseudo-talk of ethical and responsibility.

I think people choose to make selective reading, there is write that the preference is avoid mates between both affected dogs or both carriers, and IF POSSIBLE only mate affecteds and carriers dogs with free animals, obviously. that it's the only way to diminish the number of affected animals and carriers, and in a future clean the breed of this gene, simple genetic, but instead of it, lay people understand it in extreme way and spread that every affected or carrier dog should have his usage avoided, and then, the hystery starts.
They also choose to dont read the part that say DM is a disease under research, which people still does not know for sure what causes, how to cure, how many types of DM exists, which is the differences between these types and how to find those different types in an early exam, like the genetic SOD1 test.
They know that SOD1 gene points a risky factor to DM and they are studying it.

They does not ask themselves:
What is possible to do in our breed?
Which selection should we make?
Which kind of DM is showing in our dogs?
If more than one, in which lines?
Which one we should give preference in selection?

It's kind different a dog which get paralitic because of DM with 6 years old of one which is still walking with 13, but showing some silly symptoms.

But unfortunately, seems that we will never be able to reply most of these questions thanks to the hystery.

[nanouk]

1) people always forget that "affected" dogs not always get ill - by many the illness will never "show up"

I have been told this many times, also with regards to Saarloos.. With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?
I hope i assume correctly that with twd like with the SWD 10 is not "old" yet.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Look - in Italy the tests are done for years. For years there are also dogs known which surfered from DM and they same which are related with your dogs. Why you still didn't tested your dogs? But you ask (or better said: require) from other to have their dogs testes already now...

This is an example of the new wave of how to behave on wolfdog, wofldogetichette.
Same question from Daiva, same reply from me.

DNA test on Degenerative Mielopathy is relatively "new".
We can send blood tests to Germany from Italy or from Spain or from Poland in the same way.
The dogs I own who can reproduce have been tested.
I REPEAT: MY DOGS HAVE BEEN TESTED.
My 8 and 7 year old dogs, one without offspring and one with only one litter, will not reproduce anymore so I have no reason to BREED RESPONSIBLY with them.
But i guess my replies are useless right? somebody else will ask me again, when I kindly ask them if their dogs are tested, if I tested my dogs instead...