Differences in breeding strategies and regulations

[Mikael]

I agree it looks like a personal attack on Zlata Palz kennel, But…

I also think this is reasonable roles to follow by ALL breeders just like in nature…
And I do not think just because a club say it´s OK its OK...

One female can have only one litter per year. There should be the interval of 10 monts difference between two matings. Counted between two coverings.Females which gave birth to more than 8 puppies can be covered first after 365 days (counted from the last date of birth).

But I also think Ina as a vet knows more about this then me,
but I can not realy see the reasen way to mate again the same year...

And I also think that any good person that care about the breed, will signe his posts by his real name...

Best regards / Mikael

[Navarre]

dec. 08 to jan 08 is nearly a year ! I don't see any "scandal".

May be you Neufifriend, don't know how STRANGE could be the heat of our dogs...my female go in heat only when she goes in camper (mobile-home)!!!

And please, stop trolling around.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Mikael

But I also think Ina as a vet knows more about this then me,
but I can not realy see the reasen way to mate again the same year...

Best regards / Mikael

Ok now I can se the reasan Thanks fore the PM Ina.

And good luck / Mikael

[Hanka]

Hello Massimo,
in Czech is this regulation ( czech-moravian kynologic. union):

"the female can have maximal 3 litters in two years, ideal is 1 litter/ 1 year. If female has only 1 puppy, it is reguler litter".

[Neufi-friend]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I agree it looks like a personal attack on Zlata Palz kennel, But…

Because You all took it as pure attacks I felt a little bit sorry. It was not my intention to attack anybody but only the way of breeding. I went through the database checking the data on order to not make any mistakes. Now I do not feel sorry any more and I can repeat again the negative words I wrote before.

Basing on the statement given by Michael: "We used Baron Spod Dumbiera before he got the adult Bonitation and we used Enor Maly Bysterez and Gryz Spod Dumbiera without" I discovered that kennel Zlatá Palz bred 10 litters and 4 of them are not bred according the VDH regulations (it means almost 50%): the litters do not keep to the standards which our kennel club is asking because You can not breed with dogs which are not FCI registered stud dogs. I can't find the litter of the dog Gryz in the database and there is the possibility that the number of litters registered not according the given rules but only thanks to a special permission can grow.
We are very proud of the rules set by VDH because it prevents abusing the dogs and sets high requirements for the breeders. But so far I dealt with cases where breeders made even more than VDH is asking from them (additional heath test, examinations). But I never saw a case where a breeder makes less than the basic requirements and a breeder who do not fulfil the regulations do many times. On the German forum all breeders including Michael attack any person who breeds TWH outside VDH but how can You do this while You also are not able to fulfil basic requirements which VDH is asking to have a litter officially registered by them?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Still no balls, poor you. Cowards are not worth any answers.

Who needs any information on that or any translations of the German Forum is again welcome to contact us.

Ina

[Neufi-friend]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Neufi-friend, its your 3º post talking about or trying to attack Zlata Palz kennel, that means, all your posts.

I think you misunderstood my answers because I do not use other way of expression than Michael is using for the whole time. In the German forum you can read his very negative opinions about the health of dogs coming from Crying wolf kennel, about the mass production of puppies by Passo of Lupo or Christian's choice. Any many other dogs and breeders. For a long time I though it was a sign of experience and promotion of the right way of breeding. Oh, I was naive.
You recognized my expressions as attack but it is only showing my disappointment because whom I consider for a long time as serious breeder is not a little bit better person than breeders he criticizes. And with every new private message I receive it makes me more sad.
You all have very professional web pages and great database but the level of the breeders stay fare behind the level of internet presentation and it is not possible to call such kind of behaviour as a "responsible breeding".

And reading the opinions written in this topic by breeders (?) which do not see anything wrong on producing 20 puppies of one female within one year I feel really sad for this breed and the dogs which such people own.
I could write that for me it is pure abuse of the female but it is not about my private opinion. One thing what you can not change and you must all follow are the regulations; and the VDH says "only one litter per year is allowed". Mr. Massimo please do not hide behind being "pitty of missing a litter" because we all are not children which are not able to count - mother of this litter gave birth to puppies in December, so she was covered in October. The next heat will be due next October. If there would be no litter this time they will not loose anything. Because there was one litter born last year (01.2008) and it was sure when they would not cover the female now the next litter would be born in 2009. It means no "lost" heats but also keeping to the RULES. Is it so hard?
I checked the German forum once again and still I have no explanation for it. There is written that the VDH allowed it because the female is healthy. And the main explanation given by the breeder is that the female was forced to have 20 puppies a year because she "loves puppies so much". Does it mean other German breeders keep to the rules because they females are in bad condition and they need more time to recover than the Michael's females? Or maybe although also other femals are in great contition other breeders do not cover them twice a years because the regulations and the good of the dogs is much more important than rising as many puppies as possible?
Everyone of us know mutt females which have litters 3 times a year and look healthy but I don't know any serious and responsible breeder who will cover his female 3 times a year even if he could. Also I will not call a responsible breeder person who ask for such behaviour permission (don't forget in Germany something is not officialy allowed and you must ask for special permission).
Of course I can be wrong and the breeder asked a special permission and the litter will be counted for the year 2009. In this case - if I get guarantee that Falin will have no other litter in 2009 I will officially apologize here.

Originally Posted by massimo

I suppose you mean to say that Zlata Palz puppy owners can be conditioned and bribed some way by Micheal Eichorn?
This is a very superficial remark...
I own a Passo del Lupo, a Crying Wolf and a Zlata Palz.
(...)
If mating a female within a year difference is forbidden in Germany but not in Italy, France, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, then it is a German problem, NOT OURS.
You should know well that "skipping" a heat for a CSW means to wait a whole year because of 1 heat per year, and specially when heat is difficult it is a pity to miss.
Also, if puppies were born 11 and then 9 it is not the breeder's fault.
Maybe you suggest to kill 2 or 3 pups so he can be "regular?".

You are wrong while You write it is not YOUR problem since English forum is a place when breeders from all countries meet and the forum where users are dealing with all kind of problems, it is also the right place for my question. It is not about problem in my country but a problem of breeders who do not keep to the kennel club regulations in their countries. And if the regulation ask you to skip the heat you have to do this.
And Your try to absolve abusing of the females is for me incomprehensible.
From the other side what I took the look on the dogs you own and listed I must admit that you have a very weird kind of choosing the breeders. I'm not familiar with TWH but I know your kennel names since all are pretty "famous" on this forum. And even if only 50 percent of the facts written by Michael about the mass production of puppies by Passo del Lupo and health and character problems in this kennel or the story about Crying wolf written by Christian after he took Myla: about very poor conditions and puppies growing up in rabbit cages in this kennel I would say openly I will never made the choice like you while choosing the puppies. I do not care about any stories about quality, or missing quality, of the dogs coming from both kennels but purely about the conditions. While buying puppies you pay money which force the breeders to produce more and more dogs who are being abused in this way. And indirectly the puppy buyers like you are also responsible for the poor life the poor dogs lead there.
Since last few days I will also not recommend Zlata Palz but as far I can see it fits to your preferences. I can understand you will protect it because if you would not agree with the kind of treating animals in the three listed kennels you would also not buy a puppy from them.
But I hope you also understand that for many other dog owners the life of animals and conditions in which they are living and the way they are threated are more important than the pedigree, puppies and money.

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Then as you're almost an anonimous here you will have 3 days to fullfill your user datas on control panel or I will have reason to think you're nothing than a troll.

Please believe me I was thinking about this till I read the words written by Michael:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Still no balls?
Usually I tell people with no name to bugger off, but since Newfoundland Dogs and obviously their friends are not the fastest moving animals, I kindly ask you now to introduce yourself.
Otherwise you're not worthy wasting an answer on.
Michael

First as far I know according the netiquette all personal attacks are forbidden and I hope the moderator will also suffer consequences in this case.
For me two things become clear: instead of any explanations all I get is hiding the truth and trying to avoid any official answers. Soon I will be banned only because I asked wrong questions to the wrong person. Nice way of dealing with any opponents. KGB can learn of it.
From the other side the answers I get from Michael, even if they do not include any facts, are also a clear answer for me that my suspicions must be true because they caused such enormous aggression. It made me clear which kind of person is my debater.
Instead of discussion and answers all I get are personal attack on my dogs and me. I hope you will understand that I will not publish my personal information since I was already informed that all I can get after it is not a clear answer but offending phone calls full of fury.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

I hope you will understand that I will not publish my personal information since I was already informed that all I can get after it is not a clear answer but offending phone calls full of fury.

Against all better knowledge I will take you seriously and give you some good advise:
You should look for better information sources very urgently.
And try to do what every sensible person does: Get your informations from the persons directly instead of following rumors...But of course that would ask for at least some little bit of straight thinking.
The VDH is the only one ruling the breeding in Germany, they register the dogs, they give the pedigrees, none of them owns a CSW and none of them is a fool. All litters have normal pedigrees and registration and now start thinking, it´s more than time.

Ina

[massimo]

My first reaction in reading a series of ignorant sentences was to reply in a hard and bad way.
Then I thought about it and I understood how poor knowledge you have of anything you are writing about and how poor respect of what you ignore you have and what a high opinion you have about yourself and your opinions...
Response? poor Mr or Mrs Neufi-friend...entering the "world" of wolfdogs not knowing anthing about it and trying to give moral judgements about it.
Some simple and silly examples:

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

You are wrong while You write it is not YOUR problem since English forum is a place when breeders from all countries meet and the forum where users are dealing with all kind of problems, it is also the right place for my question. It is not about problem in my country but a problem of breeders who do not keep to the kennel club regulations in their countries. And if the regulation ask you to skip the heat you have to do this.

If something is forbidden in germany and not in Italy, and I personally don't think it is a big issue (2 puppies withing 12 months or 2 puppies within 11 months) I simply think German law is too "tight" and doesn't take in account each breed.

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

And Your try to absolve abusing of the females is for me incomprehensible.

Abusing of females is making her have puppies after 11 months and not 12? are you serious? are you crazy? do you want examples of abuse on dogs??

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

From the other side what I took the look on the dogs you own and listed I must admit that you have a very weird kind of choosing the breeders. I'm not familiar with TWH but I know your kennel names since all are pretty "famous" on this forum. And even if only 50 percent of the facts written by Michael about the mass production of puppies by Passo del Lupo and health and character problems in this kennel or the story about Crying wolf written by Christian after he took Myla: about very poor conditions and puppies growing up in rabbit cages in this kennel I would say openly I will never made the choice like you while choosing the puppies.

This one is really nice:
You quote one person, my friend Christian, and take him as a reference when he speaks bad about Crying wolf and then you take Michael's words about mass production/health/character about Passo del lupo kennel and then speak bad a bout Zlata Palz!!!
that is really weird.
1) do you know Michael?
2) do you know Christian?
3) have you visited Crying wolf kennel?
4) have you visited Passo del lupo Kennel?
5) has Micheal visited Passo del lupo Kennel?
All 5 points I can reply YES... and very well....
I doubt it...
Passo del lupo Characters:
Oliver Passo del lupo: my dog... do you have any idea of his character?
Ask around... 99.9% of wolfdogs are much more shy than he is...
Of course... I don't like their mass production, but no other dog you know is better fed or in better hygenic conditions.

Zlata Palz abuse their females:
well... I tell you what I saw: 4 females living inside the house freely as if they were the owners of the house.
Puppy litter growing up near the bed of the breeders
One of the females slept on the bed with me (not sure if that is abuse on dog or on me!)
One male... one of the best characters of CSW dogs around... and it's not just thanks the dog's bloodline.

Crying Wolf:
Edit Molnar is a friend, a good friend since many years.
Many times I don't agree with her breeding plans.
I know she loves her dogs
I've been many times in her kennel.
Rabbit cages??
I've been many times in her kennel.
I saw Myla when she was less than 2 months old (before Christian...)
NO RABBIT CAGES.
One woman, 4 fences, various dogs turnover to be free in the fences several times per day. 90% of Edit's time is dedicated to her dogs.
I am sure you would have problems only with 1 wolfdog...
Of course... people like me, Sonja Bognarova, Hana Kaufmanova who trusted Edit leaving their dogs in her kennel must be very stupid.
Or maybe not?

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

I do not care about any stories about quality, or missing quality, of the dogs coming from both kennels but purely about the conditions. While buying puppies you pay money which force the breeders to produce more and more dogs who are being abused in this way. And indirectly the puppy buyers like you are also responsible for the poor life the poor dogs lead there.

you are right... I am a bad puppy buyer... maybe also bad owner... maybe also bad person...
At least people know how and what I am.... AND YOU?

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

Since last few days I will also not recommend Zlata Palz but as far I can see it fits to your preferences. I can understand you will protect it because if you would not agree with the kind of treating animals in the three listed kennels you would also not buy a puppy from them.

Aristoteles wouldn't have been able to create a better sentance...
there is no comment to be done on this one. It replies on it's own.

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

But I hope you also understand that for many other dog owners the life of animals and conditions in which they are living and the way they are threated are more important than the pedigree, puppies and money.

Oh my god... do you know how my dogs live? do you have any idea?
I could make some examples that would make you shiver and make you wish all breeders were like the ones you speak so bad about...

anyway...all wasted words... to an anonymous being.
Massimo

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by massimo

One of the females slept on the bed with me (not sure if that is abuse on dog or on me!)

Massimo

It was abuse of the bed, Baschka is not allowed on it (but takes every opportunity.

Greetings Ina (and Baschka)

[massimo]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

It was abuse of the bed, Baschka is not allowed on it (but takes every opportunity.

Greetings Ina (and Baschka)

You're getting old Ina....memory is leaving you.. it was not Baschka but the "different" one... Amie!

Funny... when I slept at Christian's place Myla slept on my bed!

oh the girls cannot resist me!

massimo

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Well i didn´t join in the bed so I don´t know exactly.

Only the four legged ones?

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

Oh, I was naive.

That´s the gist of the matter: you are naive.

[Hanka]

hello Ina,
thanks for your answer (once again)

[Neufi-friend]

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

I discovered that kennel Zlatá Palz bred 10 litters and 4 of them are not bred according the VDH regulations (it means almost 50%)

I get PN that also the first litter is not bred according the VDH regulation: it makes 5 litters of 10.

[Hanka]

So: how it works in Germany? , I don´t understand. Is there club, what have any regulations? And: if somebody does something wrong- does club anything against it? Is there any club goverment? Can club punish some bad breeder? (For example- litter without pedigree?)
Who watch all breeders? Works there any breedcomission what watch health of breed?
If no- why you have not working club?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Germany has the kennel club = VDH and Breeding Clubs that are members of the VDH. To get a Breeding Club you have to show how many dogs and different lines (not related up to the 4-5th generation) you have, nationally, not internationally. You have to pay 14 000 Euros (you can get a reduction to 7 000 if you are lucky). Then you have a period of two years to get specialised judges (that are not allowed to start training before that) and breeding controlers (who have to do a special training too and can´t start befor the period) of your own, judges and breeding controlers have to be breeders. After that period you have to show that you have done all that and continued to build up the breed. Than you have to pay again 14 ooo (or 7000) and when you are lucky you are a member then.
We (the first German Club) are trying to get there since more than a decade, we may be succesfull in the nearer future but don´t know for sure.
Till then you need for breeding in Germany a hip x-ray, an eye test not older than 1 year, 1 exhibition and one special exhibition for breeding, that´s all.
Pedigrees, registration and special permissions are given by the VDH directly.
Bonitations, Edurance tests, ED-x-rays and everything else is done volunteeringly and not asked for by the VDH.

Ina

[Hanka]

Thank you Ina for explain. And now please explain me. Is anywhere wroted: how often female can have pups, what must be conditions for parents? (age, shows, X-ray, zuchtsulassung or bonitation, etc)? And who watch and control it? is it work of club?
From forum it looks you don´t keep theese conditions. So what is true?
Because this is never ending story. Only attacks and attacks.....
It is bad, to read only the same: problems between people. it is not about wolfdogs already.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Thank you Ina for explain. And now please explain me. Is anywhere wroted: how often female can have pups, what must be conditions for parents? (age, shows, X-ray, zuchtsulassung or bonitation, etc)?And who watch and control it? is it work of club?

As I wrote before the one who watches and controlles is the VDH and there the persons in charge for breed or special problems. The conditions for Zuchtzulassung in Germany are as I wrote. If you want to use dogs under special conditions you have to ask for permissions, you have to explain why and the person of the VDH decides if you get the permission and under what conditions. For mating Falin again for example we had to get her checked from a vet that is working for the VDH as a verified vet. The reason why we asked is that she is very likely to go into professional work this year and then will be out of breeding at least 2 years until I have a second fully trained dog. The reason why we got it is that there is no such rule in the other countries, the rule was made for breeds that get in heat twice and there is absolutely no medical reason against it.

Every kennel club in every country has this possibility and uses it. If you fullfill the conditions and ask in advance they get full Registration and pedigree.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Because this is never ending story. Only attacks and attacks.....
It is bad, to read only the same: problems between people. it is not about wolfdogs already.

This is why I stopped answering directly in the forum and got to PM and would ask to do so if anybody has questions.
As long as people like Christian and Neufi-friend get attention the quarrel will go on. The reason is not concern of the breed but trying to discredit and blackmail, it is as simple as that.
I am sorry for that but simply can´t help it.

Greetins Ina