de Louba Tar kennel

elf · 13-12-2007, 11:11

Paul, I'm not glad the way you used this forum. For the rest it's not my position to judge or to post my thoughts regarding the lack of all the complete informations. I guess many of us should wait complements or justice informations before posting side way. One first justice principle: the doubt have to profit to the shown. At the present time you did not bring enough for the doubt to disappear, so you started a rumour (maybe many people know more about this story, but most of the people reading don't !). I wait more additions from you or the authorities, and will stop posting as it will be steril and contribute to the rumour (right now it's still a rumour).

I don't like to see such pictures posted without all the context detailed. I don't like the way you made it public and then said I have to wait to give more informations (so then my opinion is you should also have waited to post this). I know many rumours which ran this way and was wrong at the end ; but then, even the facts corrected it was to late, people were definitely spoiled.

To be clear to you: my contestation is the form you used, which is definitly wrong (even if all you said I right). The form you present it is very important, and there are rules to follow to be clean. I not habilitated to judge the rest and won't do in the name of my thoughts. So I wait for the end of the full story, which will be bad and sad in each case.

Anthony

solowolf · 13-12-2007, 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Paul, I'm not glad the way you used this forum. For the rest it's not my position to judge or to post my thoughts regarding the lack of all the complete informations. I guess many of us should wait complements or justice informations before posting side way. One first justice principle: the doubt have to profit to the shown. At the present time you did not bring enough for the doubt to disappear, so you started a rumour (maybe many people know more about this story, but most of the people reading don't !). I wait more additions from you or the authorities, and will stop posting as it will be steril and contribute to the rumour (right now it's still a rumour).

I don't like to see such pictures posted without all the context detailed. I don't like the way you made it public and then said I have to wait to give more informations (so then my opinion is you should also have waited to post this). I know many rumours which ran this way and was wrong at the end ; but then, even the facts corrected it was to late, people were definitely spoiled.

To be clear to you: my contestation is the form you used, which is definitly wrong (even if all you said I right). The form you present it is very important, and there are rules to follow to be clean. I not habilitated to judge the rest and won't do in the name of my thoughts. So I wait for the end of the full story, which will be bad and sad in each case.

Anthony

what details do you want the photos are all taken at be louba tar kennels,,, it was made public to let people see the terrible conditions, what is wrong with that, i was told i could use the photos but not disclose other information as it was protected, a rumour is hear say ,, the photos are facts on paper, and will be and have been excepted as evidence so how are they rumours please explain?? the forum is used to greate topics of interest to other dog owners, breeders or lovers, i am well within my rights to post this on the forum as i think it is a complete disgrace the living conditions of the animals, how will it end sad if these poor dogs get a better life,, i think your post is very sad,, as i have said before if anything i say is not true then MRS Keizer should get a legal representitive at once and proecute me for slander, i have already put my full name and address on this topic, i would look very forward to seeing this breeder in any court at any time.. paul

wolfin · 13-12-2007, 23:29

Hmm, i have question.
Mrs. Keizer have big kennel and ...what? what good she have breeding? not good dogs type, not good charakter or good work rezults. Wheil she have 49 dogs if not make too breed good future?

to me max 10 dogs and ALL mas living in house, not kennel, and this people i named breeders, others is moore producents not breeders.

but this is me opinion, i not kant Keizer, but shes dogs not like me as wolfdogs, and i not see good breedings rezults in shes kennel.

solowolf · 14-12-2007, 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

Hmm, i have question.
Mrs. Keizer have big kennel and ...what? what good she have breeding? not good dogs type, not good charakter or good work rezults. Wheil she have 49 dogs if not make too breed good future?

to me max 10 dogs and ALL mas living in house, not kennel, and this people i named breeders, others is moore producents not breeders.

but this is me opinion, i not kant Keizer, but shes dogs not like me as wolfdogs, and i not see good breedings rezults in shes kennel.

hi, yes Mrs Keizer has big kennels, i worked with all her dogs for long time and no dog ever showed any agression to my wife or i , if anything most where of a shy nature, as for working although they did not train to work does not mean they could not work, fact is we loved all the dogs no mater what make or shape they were, what ever mrs Keizer did with her breeding that was incorrect then she will have to answer to the authorities, my main concern is with the welfare of the dogs, breeding and other irregularities that took place are being delt with by other people in europe, i am only concerned that all the dogs no matter what they look like are put in better living conditions, regards paul

Nebulosa · 15-12-2007, 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacino

i am only concerned that all the dogs no matter what they look like are put in better living conditions

I really not know how it works in europe, remembering that this local is public and all who want can read and understand as they wish, haven't the danger of someone alert the zoonosis control center for put an end in that kennel? These fotos are suficiently for zoonosis control go and see if it's all truth, if they do that I don't think that they will leave these dogs alive...

furyos · 15-12-2007, 02:11

hi everybody ...y have today mrs c.keizer to speak about this post ...after discussions and after consult some people (friend /lawers etc ....)she decide to write ...y post for her ...(because she never write on this public forum first time because she don' t want spend her time (so busy )on and second part because this is not in her mentality to talk negativly ....

"Amazing what you can do on internetforums to harm people you do not dare to confront in a more personal way.
This is not the first time Mr. Winder attacks cwd breeders and maybe the best way is to ignore hysterical allegations.
But one wonders why now, after all these years?
He seems to forget that he and his wife Mandy were guests at the Louba-Tar kennels for one and a half year and that maybe he even built the pens he took pictures from after heavy rainfall.
Should he have done a better job?
It did not seem to bother him at that time to leave his 7 dogs in these kennels when he left for Spain for a period of 5 whole months.
Pictures of the Louba-Tar dogs are used and abused by Mr. Winder as its suits his purposes:
in September 2006 pictures taken at the same kennel were there to illustrate happy dogs, running around in flowery surroundings.
But then Mr. Winder wanted to show off as THE specialist on wolfdogs in the UK, repeating everything he had learned at the Louba-Tar kennels.
It's almost X-mas and wouldn't it be great if the forum was a place where you exchange experiences with people who are mad about these wonderful dogs called czechoslowakian wolfdogs instead of turning it into a dustbin for frustated crap? C.KEIZER"

just precify that y hope her words find sense and lightly mind .....greatings ...furyos

Rona · 15-12-2007, 13:11

Furyos, I don't know the breeder and I don’t know Paul but you can't deny that even if you call Paul's posts 'manipulation', one may easily count the dogs' ribs on both Paul's and Mirka's photos. Surely CSVs are not greyhounds, are they? I see no reason why Mirka should manipulate the photos if all other pictures she takes bring out the best of every dog?

Besides, you defend the French breeder... Fine, but two things surprise me:
First: you don't seem to worry about the welfare of de Louba Tar dogs. How would you feel IF it turns out that Paul was right and he (and others involved) will win the case in court (or whatever they plan) What will your reaction be IF Paul manages to proove that the dogs were kept in terrible conditions? Will you still defend the breeder and attack Paul? Or will you apologise him? Remember, we're talking here about living creatures. It's not an academic discussion!

Mind you: I'm not saying that this will happen for sure, but wouldn't it be wiser to withhold your judgements before you and we all learn more about the case and Paul's 'action' is brought out to the public?

Secondly: you accuse Paul of hypocrisy, bad intentions, hidden agenda, call him names while in fact we don't know where the truth lies. Your attitude and blind defence is weird to me and makes me wonder what YOUR intentions are? National loyalty or common interests with the breeder? Are you aware that you're risking your own reputation? If she loses the case you'll be disregarded by the majority of CSV owners community, not only in France.

Another question: what would you do if you had such knowledge like Paul? Keep it to yourself or display it? Any time, or only if you compiled good evidence?

***
What would each of us do in such circumstances?

solowolf · 15-12-2007, 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by furyos

hi everybody ...y have today mrs c.keizer to speak about this post ...after discussions and after consult some people (friend /lawers etc ....)she decide to write ...y post for her ...(because she never write on this public forum first time because she don' t want spend her time (so busy )on and second part because this is not in her mentality to talk negativly .... "Amazing what you can do on internetforums to harm people you do not dare to confront in a more personal way.
This is not the first time Mr. Winder attacks cwd breeders and maybe the best way is to ignore hysterical allegations.
But one wonders why now, after all these years?
He seems to forget that he and his wife Mandy were guests at the Louba-Tar kennels for one and a half year and that maybe he even built the pens he took pictures from after heavy rainfall.
Should he have done a better job?
It did not seem to bother him at that time to leave his 7 dogs in these kennels when he left for Spain for a period of 5 whole months.
Pictures of the Louba-Tar dogs are used and abused by Mr. Winder as its suits his purposes:
in September 2006 pictures taken at the same kennel were there to illustrate happy dogs, running around in flowery surroundings.
But then Mr. Winder wanted to show off as THE specialist on wolfdogs in the UK, repeating everything he had learned at the Louba-Tar kennels.
It's almost X-mas and wouldn't it be great if the forum was a place where you exchange experiences with people who are mad about these wonderful dogs called czechoslowakian wolfdogs instead of turning it into a dustbin for frustated crap? C.KEIZER y just precify that y hope her words find sense and lightly mind .....greatings ...furyos

as i have told you before in two posts i will not repeat myself again, but as i said, the conditions are the tip of an iceburg, with so many posts wanting to know all the details i have now give a deadline to the authorities and breed club to take action on this breeder and others, if i do not get response then i and others will go to national papers in uk and europe and every thing will then be publish and out in the open for all to see, i have posted my full name and address so Mrs Keizer can inform her legal representitive to deal with my allegations, after all as you and other say it my be rummors or false information,, but just think, do you really think i would do this if i was not correct, as you are in contact with Mrs Keizer why noy ask her why she does not take legal action against me? yes i did build some compounds for the dogs and yes if Mrs Keizer had of given me the money i could have made shelters, mr Gerrard de moore and many others also helped build at these kennels maybe they to could have built them better as well, also it costs alot of money to take 4-6 dogs to shows and we all know Mrs Keizer attended lots and not just in France so maybe this money would have been better spent on the dogs living quarters as well, every question you ask i will have an answer , but the facts are i worked there i did not own or run the kennels, if you would like me to send you videos please send your private email address and i will send you some, the photos are mild compared to the horendous video clips we have and not all were taken by me, best regards paul

solowolf · 16-12-2007, 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

I really not know how it works in europe, remembering that this local is public and all who want can read and understand as they wish, haven't the danger of someone alert the zoonosis control center for put an end in that kennel? These fotos are suficiently for zoonosis control go and see if it's all truth, if they do that I don't think that they will leave these dogs alive...

hi yes i know about the French authorities and what they do but we are working with other people to make sure all dogs are safe , it has taken time but we have a choice leave things the way they are or stop it for the future dogs, it was not easy decision and i did not make it myself i consulted a lot of friends in Europe we discuss the situation and the risks but we have all seen the kennels and we all say we must stop it now, members of a breed clud have viewed the vodeos made by different people at different times a lot of the people cried after seeing the clips, other people have also came forward now to help and share other photos, thank you for your post regards paul

Joyce · 16-12-2007, 01:22

Paul, it almost seems like you are the owner of this site.
If somebody ask some questions back, you stated that we make silly remarks, and if somebody is more in to your corner than you say thank you for your post.
So you say that if a friend is also at the kennel of which you say time after time that dogs should not live in these circumstances than it is ok to leave your dogs there? They are still in the kennels and with somebody who you obviously does not like!
I totally agree with you and I never said that dogs should live in terrible circumstances so reed my post first well before you react.
I have read all your posts and in every post you say almost the same. I find it still very strange that it took you so long and that you ask people on the forum to send you pictures etc. just to have more evidence. So I'm thinking that your "case" is not as strong as you let believing us.
A forum is a place to let everybody learn from each other, and to speak of interesting matters. NOT FOR PERSONAL VENDETTA'S !

jasmine · 15-12-2007, 16:51

I always promised myself that I won't write to this forum......But it makes me indignant what 's going on again.
For me a little bit strange that a lot of people has got opinion about breeders whom they haven't never known , about dogs which they have never seen ,kennels which they have never visited!
To cause bad reputation to somebody else is very easy, to attact sb. else, hurt somebody else it is easy but not too intelligent. If sb. has got personal conflict please arange it by private mail and try to respect each other. All of them try to walk in own shoes, in own way with and without fault.

A lot of person among us was very young (or maybe hasn't been alived yet) when Cornelia started to deal with saarloose and csw. Her first profil is the saarloose and please look after the results of the big dogshows.....her dogs are always on the top.
The only thing what we could do to study from her!!!!!! and RESPECT her!!!!

Edit Molnar / kennel Crying Wolf

PS: please remember that it could be brought an action for liber against those who write fault things....
and I'm realy envy that a lot of people has got a lot of time to write this forum but it would be better if they go to deal with thier dogs inspite of this!!!!!!

Nebulosa · 15-12-2007, 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasmine

Her first profil is the saarloose and please look after the results of the big dogshows.....her dogs are always on the top.

Dogshows means nothing, most of then are only politic, some of then are judge for persons who not have knowledge for judge the breed, so is more valid the "show" than the dog quality, we can see that now in Alicante, Spain dogshow where the dogs was judged by one molosser specialist, who have no idea about the breed, was a big dogshow but without value for who whant one second opinion by one "specialist", so that can change a little bit when we talk about special breed dog show or specific breed selection tests as bonitation, have she any bonitated CzW?
I have no idea about shes work with saarloos, but this about dog shows never change independant of the breed.
If she cannot select right CzW or not want spend time with the breed, or who knows... not like the breed as like the saarloos, so is more easy stop breeding CzW and continue only with Saarloos.

Mirkawolf · 15-12-2007, 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine

A lot of person among us was very young (or maybe hasn't been alived yet) when Cornelia started to deal with saarloose and csw. Her first profil is the saarloose and please look after the results of the big dogshows.....her dogs are always on the top.
The only thing what we could do to study from her!!!!!! and RESPECT her!!!!

Dog shows mean NOTHING. Especially if the titles are given by judges, who are her friends, or judges, who know nothing of the breed at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine

Edit Molnar / kennel Crying Wolf

PS: please remember that it could be brought an action for liber against those who write fault things....
and I'm realy envy that a lot of people has got a lot of time to write this forum but it would be better if they go to deal with thier dogs inspite of this!!!!!!

You are right. So please, start at your own kennel. Cause I´ve heard also some very bad rumours about dogs who come from your kennel...

Joyce · 15-12-2007, 19:54

I was very amazed when I was reading this topic.
A friend of mine has two dogs from this kennel and I can asure you that they were in good condition when he got them!
These two dogs have very good manners, looking great, are in good shape and are kindly to people they know.
When a breeder loves to have their dogs a bit thin is that forbidden?? Its up to the new owner to keep it that way or to change it, if dogs are to fat you have lots of trouble to get them on a diet.
In the reaction of mrs. Keizer I understood that you, Paul, left 7 dogs with her when you went to Spain! So if this person is not good to her dogs why did you left them with her in the first place? And how about your concerns to the dogs? Did you not have any concerns when you left your dogs with her? Strange ain't it, because when it its to your personal benefit, you do not mind to leave your own dogs with you.
In my personal opinion you have a personal vendetta against this breeder, so please keep it to yourself or to the person involved instead of doing some backstabbing on a public forum.
The pictures shown could be have taken at any kennel, because we never see a name sign or something only some kennels. You stated you have pictures of the kennels you build yourselve there, they were made in summer and you used them for your own promotion, so be a man and show them also to everybody here.
The breeder is much concerned with the dogs, much more than to her own concern, when people who can not cope with the dogs because of their strong temper, spirit and caracter she always takes them back instead of leaving them to theirselves! And this was also in the time you were there I'm sure!!
What I find very strange is that it took you 18 months to go away and also a long time to put all this at the forum. If you are that concerned with the dogs in my opinion I never should take that much time to expell this breeder, so that is also a bit strange ain't it??
Your excuse that you were afraid of the French autorities is also a bit week, these autorithies are still the same so the risk for the dogs still there is the same!

solowolf · 16-12-2007, 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyce

I was very amazed when I was reading this topic.
A friend of mine has two dogs from this kennel and I can asure you that they were in good condition when he got them!
These two dogs have very good manners, looking great, are in good shape and are kindly to people they know.
When a breeder loves to have their dogs a bit thin is that forbidden?? Its up to the new owner to keep it that way or to change it, if dogs are to fat you have lots of trouble to get them on a diet.
In the reaction of mrs. Keizer I understood that you, Paul, left 7 dogs with her when you went to Spain! So if this person is not good to her dogs why did you left them with her in the first place? And how about your concerns to the dogs? Did you not have any concerns when you left your dogs with her? Strange ain't it, because when it its to your personal benefit, you do not mind to leave your own dogs with you.
In my personal opinion you have a personal vendetta against this breeder, so please keep it to yourself or to the person involved instead of doing some backstabbing on a public forum.
The pictures shown could be have taken at any kennel, because we never see a name sign or something only some kennels. You stated you have pictures of the kennels you build yourselve there, they were made in summer and you used them for your own promotion, so be a man and show them also to everybody here.
The breeder is much concerned with the dogs, much more than to her own concern, when people who can not cope with the dogs because of their strong temper, spirit and caracter she always takes them back instead of leaving them to theirselves! And this was also in the time you were there I'm sure!!
What I find very strange is that it took you 18 months to go away and also a long time to put all this at the forum. If you are that concerned with the dogs in my opinion I never should take that much time to expell this breeder, so that is also a bit strange ain't it??
Your excuse that you were afraid of the French autorities is also a bit week, these autorithies are still the same so the risk for the dogs still there is the same!

hi, my dogs were left with one of corries friends called Henery who lives in Reims, so that rules that one out,,, i have also explained why i stayed 18mth and also why it has taken so long to bring the photos out, its all in previuos posts, i have no personal vendetta, so you say dogs come back with stong temper, spirit or caracter, This is because no one had time to socialise the pups as there was to much work with the 100 plus other dogs ,, some of the photos are in pens i built.. i have nothing to hide, my wife and i also spent some of our own savings on material,,, all the photos were taken at de louba tar kennels they are now part of the evidence that the authorities have, you must thing i am stupid to make false photos then give them as evidense, if you think the dogs in the photos are A BIT THIN , a bit thin is an under statement now have another look before you write any more silly remaks, the dogs look like something that has been abandoned and running the streets for 3 mths living of scraps,, in uk you would be arrested for having animals this thin,, my friends who came to wittness these dogs cried when i showed them around the kennels, NO ANIMAL DESERVES TO LIVE LIKE THIS AND I CONDEM ANYONE WHO THINKS OTHERWISE, PAUL

jasmine · 15-12-2007, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

You are right. So please, start at your own kennel. Cause I´ve heard also some very bad rumours about dogs who come from your kennel...

Please try to deal with your own things and look around your own hause!
I'm just wondering what could be the reason why you always have to attact somebody, why you always drop with shit. ????? I'm just wondering.........
As I remember we have never met,we have never talk and you have never visited my kennel........and I hear a lot of roumors too but I just believe what I see...and don't care about the people who are talking stupid things....

miihar · 15-12-2007, 21:34

I think this forum is for everybody to express their own opinion. So it's quite normal to attack one another here. But anyway I think it is very important that these matters are discussed here, whether good or bad. And the discussion can be endless, of course. You can criticize one another's breeding manners, but it of course it breaks my heart if somebody, the above mentioned kennel, for example, is mistreating dogs. I don't know what's the truth, but Paul seems to be on good cause. Private matters are private, why bother come here and try and solve them...

Mirkawolf · 15-12-2007, 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasmine

Please try to deal with your own things and look around your own hause!
I'm just wondering what could be the reason why you always have to attact somebody, why you always drop with shit. ????? I'm just wondering.........
As I remember we have never met,we have never talk and you have never visited my kennel........and I hear a lot of roumors too but I just believe what I see...and don't care about the people who are talking stupid things....

My dear, I am not attacking anyone here, and I am certainly speaking with nicer manner, than you are.
I never said I´ve met you (though I did), I never said I´ve visited you (and I don´t wish to) and sure, we did not talk (and I am happy we did not, seeing your way of expressing yourself).
All I said, is that I´ve heard some rather disturbing rumours about your kennel, which, if they are true, make me think you are not the right one to tell us how to breed and treat our dogs. Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyone can visit me and my dogs anytime and see how they live and how we take care of them. Only you won´t see any pups here, cause we are not breeding on dysplatic dogs.

And as this topic is about Louba Tar, I don´t see any reason on continuing this off-topic discussion, especially not in this tone and manners.

13-12-2007, 23:29	#3
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	Hmm, i have question. Mrs. Keizer have big kennel and ...what? what good she have breeding? not good dogs type, not good charakter or good work rezults. Wheil she have 49 dogs if not make too breed good future? to me max 10 dogs and ALL mas living in house, not kennel, and this people i named breeders, others is moore producents not breeders. but this is me opinion, i not kant Keizer, but shes dogs not like me as wolfdogs, and i not see good breedings rezults in shes kennel. __________________

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13-12-2007, 11:11	#1
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Paul, I'm not glad the way you used this forum. For the rest it's not my position to judge or to post my thoughts regarding the lack of all the complete informations. I guess many of us should wait complements or justice informations before posting side way. One first justice principle: the doubt have to profit to the shown. At the present time you did not bring enough for the doubt to disappear, so you started a rumour (maybe many people know more about this story, but most of the people reading don't !). I wait more additions from you or the authorities, and will stop posting as it will be steril and contribute to the rumour (right now it's still a rumour). I don't like to see such pictures posted without all the context detailed. I don't like the way you made it public and then said I have to wait to give more informations (so then my opinion is you should also have waited to post this). I know many rumours which ran this way and was wrong at the end ; but then, even the facts corrected it was to late, people were definitely spoiled. To be clear to you: my contestation is the form you used, which is definitly wrong (even if all you said I right). The form you present it is very important, and there are rules to follow to be clean. I not habilitated to judge the rest and won't do in the name of my thoughts. So I wait for the end of the full story, which will be bad and sad in each case. Anthony

15-12-2007, 02:11	#6
furyos Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 729	hi everybody ...y have today mrs c.keizer to speak about this post ...after discussions and after consult some people (friend /lawers etc ....)she decide to write ...y post for her ...(because she never write on this public forum first time because she don' t want spend her time (so busy )on and second part because this is not in her mentality to talk negativly .... "Amazing what you can do on internetforums to harm people you do not dare to confront in a more personal way. This is not the first time Mr. Winder attacks cwd breeders and maybe the best way is to ignore hysterical allegations. But one wonders why now, after all these years? He seems to forget that he and his wife Mandy were guests at the Louba-Tar kennels for one and a half year and that maybe he even built the pens he took pictures from after heavy rainfall. Should he have done a better job? It did not seem to bother him at that time to leave his 7 dogs in these kennels when he left for Spain for a period of 5 whole months. Pictures of the Louba-Tar dogs are used and abused by Mr. Winder as its suits his purposes: in September 2006 pictures taken at the same kennel were there to illustrate happy dogs, running around in flowery surroundings. But then Mr. Winder wanted to show off as THE specialist on wolfdogs in the UK, repeating everything he had learned at the Louba-Tar kennels. It's almost X-mas and wouldn't it be great if the forum was a place where you exchange experiences with people who are mad about these wonderful dogs called czechoslowakian wolfdogs instead of turning it into a dustbin for frustated crap? C.KEIZER" just precify that y hope her words find sense and lightly mind .....greatings ...furyos

15-12-2007, 13:11	#7
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	Furyos, I don't know the breeder and I don’t know Paul but you can't deny that even if you call Paul's posts 'manipulation', one may easily count the dogs' ribs on both Paul's and Mirka's photos. Surely CSVs are not greyhounds, are they? I see no reason why Mirka should manipulate the photos if all other pictures she takes bring out the best of every dog? Besides, you defend the French breeder... Fine, but two things surprise me: First: you don't seem to worry about the welfare of de Louba Tar dogs. How would you feel IF it turns out that Paul was right and he (and others involved) will win the case in court (or whatever they plan) What will your reaction be IF Paul manages to proove that the dogs were kept in terrible conditions? Will you still defend the breeder and attack Paul? Or will you apologise him? Remember, we're talking here about living creatures. It's not an academic discussion! Mind you: I'm not saying that this will happen for sure, but wouldn't it be wiser to withhold your judgements before you and we all learn more about the case and Paul's 'action' is brought out to the public? Secondly: you accuse Paul of hypocrisy, bad intentions, hidden agenda, call him names while in fact we don't know where the truth lies. Your attitude and blind defence is weird to me and makes me wonder what YOUR intentions are? National loyalty or common interests with the breeder? Are you aware that you're risking your own reputation? If she loses the case you'll be disregarded by the majority of CSV owners community, not only in France. Another question: what would you do if you had such knowledge like Paul? Keep it to yourself or display it? Any time, or only if you compiled good evidence? * What would each of us do in such circumstances?**

16-12-2007, 01:22	#10
Joyce Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 12	Paul, it almost seems like you are the owner of this site. If somebody ask some questions back, you stated that we make silly remarks, and if somebody is more in to your corner than you say thank you for your post. So you say that if a friend is also at the kennel of which you say time after time that dogs should not live in these circumstances than it is ok to leave your dogs there? They are still in the kennels and with somebody who you obviously does not like! I totally agree with you and I never said that dogs should live in terrible circumstances so reed my post first well before you react. I have read all your posts and in every post you say almost the same. I find it still very strange that it took you so long and that you ask people on the forum to send you pictures etc. just to have more evidence. So I'm thinking that your "case" is not as strong as you let believing us. A forum is a place to let everybody learn from each other, and to speak of interesting matters. NOT FOR PERSONAL VENDETTA'S !

15-12-2007, 16:51	#11
jasmine Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 188	I always promised myself that I won't write to this forum......But it makes me indignant what 's going on again. For me a little bit strange that a lot of people has got opinion about breeders whom they haven't never known , about dogs which they have never seen ,kennels which they have never visited! To cause bad reputation to somebody else is very easy, to attact sb. else, hurt somebody else it is easy but not too intelligent. If sb. has got personal conflict please arange it by private mail and try to respect each other. All of them try to walk in own shoes, in own way with and without fault. A lot of person among us was very young (or maybe hasn't been alived yet) when Cornelia started to deal with saarloose and csw. Her first profil is the saarloose and please look after the results of the big dogshows.....her dogs are always on the top. The only thing what we could do to study from her!!!!!! and RESPECT her!!!! Edit Molnar / kennel Crying Wolf PS: please remember that it could be brought an action for liber against those who write fault things.... and I'm realy envy that a lot of people has got a lot of time to write this forum but it would be better if they go to deal with thier dogs inspite of this!!!!!!

15-12-2007, 19:54	#14
Joyce Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 12	I was very amazed when I was reading this topic. A friend of mine has two dogs from this kennel and I can asure you that they were in good condition when he got them! These two dogs have very good manners, looking great, are in good shape and are kindly to people they know. When a breeder loves to have their dogs a bit thin is that forbidden?? Its up to the new owner to keep it that way or to change it, if dogs are to fat you have lots of trouble to get them on a diet. In the reaction of mrs. Keizer I understood that you, Paul, left 7 dogs with her when you went to Spain! So if this person is not good to her dogs why did you left them with her in the first place? And how about your concerns to the dogs? Did you not have any concerns when you left your dogs with her? Strange ain't it, because when it its to your personal benefit, you do not mind to leave your own dogs with you. In my personal opinion you have a personal vendetta against this breeder, so please keep it to yourself or to the person involved instead of doing some backstabbing on a public forum. The pictures shown could be have taken at any kennel, because we never see a name sign or something only some kennels. You stated you have pictures of the kennels you build yourselve there, they were made in summer and you used them for your own promotion, so be a man and show them also to everybody here. The breeder is much concerned with the dogs, much more than to her own concern, when people who can not cope with the dogs because of their strong temper, spirit and caracter she always takes them back instead of leaving them to theirselves! And this was also in the time you were there I'm sure!! What I find very strange is that it took you 18 months to go away and also a long time to put all this at the forum. If you are that concerned with the dogs in my opinion I never should take that much time to expell this breeder, so that is also a bit strange ain't it?? Your excuse that you were afraid of the French autorities is also a bit week, these autorithies are still the same so the risk for the dogs still there is the same!

15-12-2007, 21:34	#17
miihar Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 9	I think this forum is for everybody to express their own opinion. So it's quite normal to attack one another here. But anyway I think it is very important that these matters are discussed here, whether good or bad. And the discussion can be endless, of course. You can criticize one another's breeding manners, but it of course it breaks my heart if somebody, the above mentioned kennel, for example, is mistreating dogs. I don't know what's the truth, but Paul seems to be on good cause. Private matters are private, why bother come here and try and solve them...