Height and weight

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

"Improvement"???? Sorry, but I know breeders which were hidding the information that their females are higher that 65cm... Because it is nothing to be proud of it...
Our friends have female which ist ("only" ) 67.5 and they heard already more times that an expert judge said "Sorry, but male were already judged"... Or - "who are the parents of this male..."
Sure - there are also females which are 62 cm and look "heavy" and masculine like CzW males. But there are almost no large females which still look typical and feminine... And I still writing about females with the size 67-68 and not 72(!)cm....

I am a bit surprised about this. I am myself owner of two very large females (well above the minimal height), and I never felt ashamed of their size. On the contrary, I am happy about their size. Yet I do not think, they´d look masculine or heavy at all.

Yes, it happened to me too, at dog shows, that the judge thought my females were too big, or even said about one that she was having masculine look. The main problem was usually in fact, that there were no "masculine" looking males at the dog show, and scary enough, my females were bigger than most of males present!

Next to a "jackal" looking male, my females will always look more heavy and "masculine", because they look like real dogs.
On the other side, compared to normal masculine looking male (see picture), there is no doubt who is female and who is male. And that even when the male is actually almost on the height limit.



My larger female has better movement, than many smaller females or males that I´ve recently met. She can run 20 km, or more, without being tired (but I do!). And she looks like a wolf when trotting, opposite to smaller dogs, that look like jackal hopping ..

And with such large female, logically smaller sized males (65, 66 or 67 cm) can be used without worries, that the pups will not achieve the minimal height. Which can easily happen, if mating males and females both closely to the height limit.

Therefore, I do not think the problem again is the size of the dog. Yes, 72cm is maybe too much for a female, after all, we breed dogs and not horses.

But what really matters, is the way the dog is built. If the female is 68cm, moves lightly and looks like female (next to normal looking males), then there is no problem. Maybe the bigger problem we have, is that there starts to appear a lot of males, that are not having typical masculine head and body built. And if the male is not looking like a male, it is fault against the standard. But it cannot be solved by eliminating larger females, so that the males "look masculine" next to them.

[massimo]

interesting mirka
I wonder if a breeder should be ashamed more if his female is too "big" or "heavy" or if he should be ashamed if his male is too "small" and "feminine"?
Personally I have a very small female and although she has got Hip displasia even if she didn't I'm not sure if I would have used her. I wonder how many others have the same "criteria".
Not many I think.
I'm not speaking "only" about Height but of Masculine looks and bones.

I remember so much critisism about using Cutt who was too short (64,5cm), but he didn't give the majority of "short" sons.
I agree with the critisism that he was used too much, this I agree surely.
But Cutt is a Male, strong male, looks and behaves like a male.
I've seen some breeders use males who really looked not masculin at all (and they were "just" over the limit!).

"Maybe" what's important are the results: if a breeder done well or bad we can only now it after, not before.
Otherwise many many breeders shouldn't be allowed to breed, and I'm not only speaking about Italy of course....
massimo

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

I am a bit surprised about this. I am myself owner of two very large females (well above the minimal height), and I never felt ashamed of their size. On the contrary, I am happy about their size. Yet I do not think, they´d look masculine or heavy at all.
(..)
Next to a "jackal" looking male, my females will always look more heavy and "masculine", because they look like real dogs.
On the other side, compared to normal masculine looking male (see picture), there is no doubt who is female and who is male. And that even when the male is actually almost on the height limit.

Mirka - it is a I wrote - I do not say ALL dogs which are bigger must be untypical. I say ALMOST ALL are untypical.
You show your dogs in the countries of "jackals".... Every typical female will be bigger and stronger than "jackal" males....

When I write about 'masculine females' I do not mean the case when one judge which do not have any idea about this breed wrote such words in the show card... I mean females which are bigger and STRONGER that strong build Czech males... I say about females which have very bad contact with the males of this breed because the males are mislead by their look - even the males think it is a male and are growling on them because they do not recognize it is a female....

And in the most cases the untypical look is connected with the size. The same is with males. Sure they are very nice and very typical males which are bigger than 70cm but the majority of the males which are bigger than 70 cm is untypical: too heavy, too molosoid.

My larger female has better movement, than many smaller females or males that I´ve recently met. She can run 20 km, or more, without being tired (but I do!). And she looks like a wolf when trotting, opposite to smaller dogs, that look like jackal hopping ..

You right - the endurance runs are one of the best ways to make proper selection. I know CzWs which are almost on the minimum of the size which were not able to pass the exams because of their wrong body build. But most of the dogs which are not able to pass it are HUGE and HEAVY.
It is the reason why I think the endurance run should be taken into consideration during the bonitation results. If we will decide that ONLY dogs which passed the endurance exams (SVP1 would be enough) with excellent note would get the P1 we would have no more too heavy, untypical dogs which get the perfect code but which are not able to run even 20km. The test would be the best criterion to say which dog is typical and which is not. Because the "typical" look is not connected with the size but with the body proportions. Such step will finish the old story with the size - it would be simple:
PEOPLE CAN BREED LARGE (AND EVEN HEAVY) WOLFDOGS OR SMALLER AND LIGHTER - BUT THEY CAN BREED ONLY DOGS WHICH CAN PASS THE BASIC TEST WITH THE NOTE EXCELLENT.
Because we all know dogs which are called "perfect", P1, "great" and "typical" by their owners but were almost tired to death after the 20 km run....

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

And with such large female, logically smaller sized males (65, 66 or 67 cm) can be used without worries, that the pups will not achieve the minimal height. Which can easily happen, if mating males and females both closely to the height limit.

No - the story with the size is much more complicated... We already saw that the size of the parents is not so important as their "genes"... Just look on your female - she is over the average size but her parents are almost on the minimum size. And she is "Slovak line" it means "supposedly" the small one... If you get different males (with the same height) for the same female you will get puppies which have different size...

At the moment I will say there is no more problem with the dogs which do not reach the minimum size in the origin countries. I heard from different breeders about one line where the dogs do not reach the minimun because of their "genes" but the dogs are very INBREEDED and not from SK or CZ. I heard rumors about the same problem in some French kennels but I didn't saw the dogs so far and because the bonitation results are missing I can not confirm it...

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

But what really matters, is the way the dog is built. If the female is 68cm, moves lightly and looks like female (next to normal looking males), then there is no problem.

EXACTLY

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

Maybe the bigger problem we have, is that there starts to appear a lot of males, that are not having typical masculine head and body built. And if the male is not looking like a male, it is fault against the standard. But it cannot be solved by eliminating larger females, so that the males "look masculine" next to them.

And here is the difference - what you write is right when we speak about "your" countries (NL, FR, LU, BE)... You have there problem with males which have too light bones, too small, which have too narrow heads with feminine look. The females are OK.
But here the story is different - we have more females which are too masculine, too huge, too heavy.
I can tell you - on one summer camp I saw WONDERFUL male. I was prepared to use this male to cover my female. The male was great - beautiful dry head, large size, great body.... Jolly from the begining was crazy about him - she really liked him... But this male had no tescticle.... I was shocked when I asked the owner for name of this dog and I heard it was ... a FEMALE.... I'm really not a begginer which is not able to distinguish CzW male from CzW female.... And I'm talking about such cases like this...

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

And here is the difference - what you write is right when we speak about "your" countries (NL, FR, LU, BE)... You have there problem with males which have too light bones, too small, which have too narrow heads with feminine look. The females are OK.

Again, I am sorry but I have to disagree. I was not speaking about "my" countries at all. Or maybe I was, because I consider "my" countries to be Czech Republic and Slovakia. And this summer, in both of these countries I´ve seen males, that were not able to match my females. I had Czech owner running towards me happily with his tiny female, telling her on the way:"Woo, let´s go see these two gorgeous males..". When I stopped him in time explaining they were females, he was totally shocked and then sad about size and look of his own female.

This summer, I´ve met many dogs in Lazne Belohrad, that were males and did not look like males at all. If I have to bend and look down everytime I meet a wolfdog to figure, if it is female or male, then there is something wrong. The sex of the male or female should be clear for the first sight.

So what is worrying me, is not the size of our dogs, but the raising amount of "unisex" looking dogs with light bones and light heads. This summer in CR (and SR) I saw, the jackals reached the East countries, too.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

This summer, I´ve met many dogs in Lazne Belohrad, that were males and did not look like males at all.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!
and the "few" male looking males, your female behaved with them in such way to make them seem like puppies...
massmio

[Mirkawolf]

You will never forget to Cira, that she can beat Oliver any time, will you But she is very special, you see.

[taro]

Hello everyone. my name is Esther and I am the proud owner of one of Hanka's dogs, O'Taro od Uhoste. My wolfdog is a male and he is just 65 cm tall. The fact is that he looks small compared to Italian big males, but he looks much more wolfish and agile. The truth is I prefer a limited height, i.e. not more than 70-72cm. Greetings specially to hanka

[fenris]

Hello Taro. I see that youre from Barcelona. Last year when I visited Barcelona I also had the opportunity to see the 2 or 3 iberian wolves (canis lupus signatus) in the central zoo in Barcelona. Have you seen them? The sex differences are huge. The female was small and fox-like while the male was large and gave the impression of a wolfdog. They were very different from our Scandinavian wolves. My guess is that the female stood only approximately 60 - 64 cm while the male must have reached some 70 - 75. Also the proportions of the body was quite different.

[massimo]

Hola Taro
You should be proud of your dog IN ANY CASE.
My Lunatica is below standard (58 approx) and Hd D, but I wouldn't change her or give her away for ANY MONEY AT ALL!!!
But I believe my male is more in type than her because of height and structure and bones.
I assure you that SHE is much much more wolfish than him!

65cm is 7cm less than 72cm, so it's obvious that he looks smaller.
But it doesn't mean he looks worst.
He would also look smaller than Hanka's Ali...(as many other wolfdogs would...)

As already others mentioned, other things are more important than height: character, health, proportions, these are things to be proud about!
massimo

Originally Posted by taro

Hello everyone. my name is Esther and I am the proud owner of one of Hanka's dogs, O'Taro od Uhoste. My wolfdog is a male and he is just 65 cm tall. The fact is that he looks small compared to Italian big males, but he looks much more wolfish and agile. The truth is I prefer a limited height, i.e. not more than 70-72cm. Greetings specially to hanka

[dog_cooker]

Originally Posted by Margo

Males - average: 26.8-27.2 in. and 88.2-99 lbs.
Females - average: 25.2-25.6 in. and 66 lbs.

Hello i was just wondering why the breed standard weight is lower than what you wrote.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by dog_cooker

Hello i was just wondering why the breed standard weight is lower than what you wrote.

In ther breed standard is written only the MINIMUM weight. I wrote about the average weight...

[dog_cooker]

oh ok thank you for explaining

[krala]

Hello,

Can somebody tell me how tall and how many kilos should a female of 8 months should have? I am worried that my dog is too thin..

Thanks a lot,
Ioana - Romania

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

You should be able to feel the rips without having to push your fingers through a layer of fat. Wolfdogs that are growing are very often looking a little bit skinny, that is normal and much better than too fat.

Ina

[krala]

Dear Ina,

Thanks a lot for your info.. I probably am a little bit paranoid...

Ioana

[saschia]

On the other hand, if you see more than the last pairs of ribs, then the dog is too thin... But be careful, in this age the growing is already slower and if you feed too much the dog can get fat in just a few weeks.

[krala]

Dear Saschia,

I don't actualy see the ribs, but I can feel them..
I feed my dog mostly raw chicken meat and bones, boiled hart and cow liver, cow meat. I let her eat as much as she wants. She refuses to eat dog food, but I do give her vitamines.. I probably get worried because she often eats only one time a day . Is that ok you think?

Thanks a lot,
Ioana

[saschia]

Hi Iolana, this seems OK. Eating once a day in this age - depend on the dog. I fed my twice a day until 18 months, but changed from 3 to 2 portions in day already in 3.5 months, because in the hot weather my dog didn't want to eat lunch. If she doesn't want to eat more often, that's fine.
I would advise you to feed the heart and especially liver raw. You need to compensate for it by bones, but liver contains many vitamins, so it is pity to spoil it by cooking.
You also should measure how much she eats now, and not offer her more.
Also, I remember that around 9 months my wolfdog stopped growing that fast and with the same amount of food and excercise as before she got a bit fatter than ideal... So watch out.

[krala]

Dear Saschia,

Thanks a lot for your post, I am really very new at this..

Also, it seams that I have a very unlucky wolf.. yesterday she broke a tooth!! One of her canines. Does somebody know if that can be reconstructed in some way?

Thanks,

Ioana

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by krala

Dear Saschia,

Thanks a lot for your post, I am really very new at this..

Also, it seams that I have a very unlucky wolf.. yesterday she broke a tooth!! One of her canines. Does somebody know if that can be reconstructed in some way?

Thanks,

Ioana

Yes, it can be reconstructed with resine or ceramic ( white normal tooth) or using a "metal protesis" ( metallic tooth).