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Old 08-01-2010, 09:29   #1
michaelundinaeichhorn
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Default handling of health problems

Due to the discussion yesterday and Mijkes new post, with which I totally agree, I would like to get some opinions.

First, now I communicated with some people I regret that I even answered to Monika and forced her to tell names, I do and did apologize for that.
My motivation was that I was extremely fed up with the kind of people that always seem to need to blame somebody, mostly with wrong accusations.

They ruin the name of kennels, a lot of gossip is done behind backs not only openly here, and they prevent more responsible people to speak openly about occuring problems and make the prevention of problems close to impossible, at least very difficult.

Communicating with two people I had to realize that the dwarf problem is much more spreaded than I realized it was. The dogs I new of before weren´t very close related to our kennel what was the reason, together with having no problems of this kind, why I always wanted to do the bloodtest but there was always more urgent matter to do before, we have been extremely buisy the last year. Now I got my kick in the ass and will test our dogs in breeding.

And that is the reason for my post here, I am sure that very many people don´t realise how close the problem is to their own dogs. Though I know the problem of naming dogs only too well and of course will respect the wish to stay quiet I am not really sure if this is the best way to go. I know only too well out of own experience how awfull those gossip-spreaders are but on the other side I think more dogs would have been tested till now.

Though I truly respect the right of free speach I more and more think that it would be better to exclude people that proofed to be not able to use this right in a responsible way and misuse it for accusations out of forums like wolfdog.org. We need this forum for international coordination and information, it is misused to discredit people by a very few, in the English part by two people. That makes it impossible to use it to open information and discussions. Though most of us including me are not innocent of talking about others there is a difference in quality in making wrong accusations or asking "innocent questions" with the goal to miscredit persons or a kennel, implying there is a problem that is hidden, to for example asking why a dog is not x-rayed in its own country or why special pairings have been made. The letter can be explained, the explanation can be accepted or not but there are true facts to talk about.

So I would be interested in your thoughts about this matter. I don´t have to decide anything - and don´t want to, of course I will respect the decisions made by the people in charge. I am just curious about other opinions.

Ina
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:50   #2
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I agree !!!

But I think the test results are to be official, just like whit the HD results.
Not in the forum, but in the database...

After all, dwarf is not as bad as HD and it is easy to avoid to get a dwarf puppy by testing your dogs before breeding.

Thanks for your post Ina

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 08-01-2010, 11:32   #3
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Yes Ina, you are right. But:
I will write here on wolfdog: "please send me fotos of your dwarf puppy, which was born in your kennel and write me names of parents. I will collect this info and I will write it on wolfdog and everybody can read it".........
How many breeders will inform us? I think nobody.
It is very difficult HOW we can handle it....
I wrote yesterday: czech club try to arrange test for czech dogs and owners will can do it and czech club breedcomission can "lead" breeding a little. We will not give together two parents-carriers. But not everybody on the World can read who is carrier, because it can ruin some kennel.
it is a pitty in other countries don´t exist breedcomission with infos about this dogs. But it is not only problem of dwarfism.....
I can write you: exist MUCH carriers in this moment in all states, but only sometimes we can see dwarf puppy. In czech was not dwarf puppy many years. (info what we have, it can´t be 100% info).
Dwarfism is problem, but not so big. For me is bigger problem HD, shy wolfdogs, mix with saarlos....
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Old 08-01-2010, 14:55   #4
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Yes I know, the reason is that people that are honest and talk openly will be blamed and the not honest ones that don´t care show themself of as the better breeders.
On the other side we now have in Germany the pairing of two sure carriers with nontested bitches that might be carriers, because people simply didn´t realize the size of the problem.
Dwarfism is a desease that is the easiest form to controle, recessiv with available test. But people will decrease the genetic pool if you show results openly, I know you are right in that point.

I don´t know a solution for this but it is the reason for my question why we tolerate over long times persons that blame others for things that they couldn´t avoid or things that are simply not true. That over and over again start attacks for their own personal reasons not out of curiosity.
This creates a athmosphere of fear and silence what is not in interest of our breed.
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Old 08-01-2010, 16:26   #5
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Ina, people are very irresponsible animals. I mean, there are even human pairs who are both proven carriers for some genetic disease (like cystic fibrosis), even ones that already have sick children and still they do reproduce. They do this to their own children! How can you stop them from doing it to the dogs?

I agree that doing the tests would be the best solution. But two conditions must be fulfilled so that it would be all fair - that most of the dogs are tested, and that the tests are reasonably priced. And such situation is almost impossible, unless it is compulsory... Imagine that I test my bitch and she would be a carrier. If there are not enough tested studs, then I have a problem - do I say openly, that my bitch is a carrier and the pups may be dwarfs - and have problems selling the pups, or do I stay quiet? Or do I stop breeding with my bitch until I find a tested, healthy, non-related male with good hips and exterior compensating my bitch's - which might mean forever? Or do I pay for the test of the selected male and pray for good results? Every one of these possibilities is bad, discriminating and especially hard if I live in Eastern Europe, which means that I have to pay for most things as much as Western Europeans while earning only half (if I am lucky) of their incomes? And selling the pups also for half of western prices, if I don't want to sell all pups out of the country?
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Old 08-01-2010, 18:46   #6
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Spread gossips...
Before were common people ask about what happened, or what the breeder X or Y have done, its really not problem as questions like that can be explaineable for every good breeder, who read can believe in it or not, this way also help us to know who is doing something for the breed and who not, also as work as warn for some people who only wants breed only looking money, or doing the wrong thing, they can be asure that in the small world of CzW people are looking what you're doing independant of where you live. By one side, its good.

But, its completly different of what for exemple Monika's do here, she comes, spread some gossips which she never was able to proove and so run away without reply any questions. If you show her lies, she comes back, make personal attacks and use the excuse of "i'm judge" or "i'm 20 years breeder" or "I was club member" and so on for try to convince most naive people to believe in her.

I'm talking particulary in this case, because even without mean names, was clear that was about her that we're talking here also.

In internet this kind of person is called troll, and comonly it get banned in the firsts posts, but the main diference of wolfdog.org is that mostly people know each other personaly, have already saw each other in real, if dont, one day probably will see, or will see a dog from this person, that's why I simply had ignored this internet rule for long time, only looking to the extremal cases.

The main problem appeared for sure when this same user had start to try blame owners for have carriers of Dwarf genes and spread gossips about it, to tell you the truth, I entered today for measure what was talked about it in the topic, and probably ban this person because of it.

The first step for end with genetic diseases, is know about them and be able to talk about it freely, without fear of be attacked because you have or had used a descendant of the dog in question without know about the problem, look that its different of repeat the same error even after know it.

I'm pretty used to moderate some foruns, but this one was really diferent for me because of the fact that the users here are not only " users" but people which breed or have a exemplar of this breed, which we know or will know personaly, its change something and that's why I where soo benevolent even with trolls.

So, if it be the will of the users, I can start to follow the common internet rules of "good sense" as they should be used, for moderate this forum, as its done in the majority of the others internet forums.
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Old 08-01-2010, 21:35   #7
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Ina, I must correct you a little. Nobody knows and things about dwarfism long time. Thanks to Mijke we started to thing about it.And it is only a few last years.
It is reason, why we can´t search to history of it, because we have not information about dwarf pups for example before year 2000.
For breeders it was "only small puppy" maybe with some health problem.
Much dwarf pups died after born and I think only a few pups survived and we can see them like dwarf puppy.
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Old 08-01-2010, 22:15   #8
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You speak about dwarf, yes this is too important, but Hanka (and others), You I think can my thake and info about broken tail. in this year in CZ You mas see dogs in bonitation with this tail and maybe know moore about others dog, who have in pedigree stamp " not breed" with broken tail. Dogs with this are and in Italia, but ... ufortunely going to breeding. I think and moore dogs are with this bad problem. Or now we all "hunting" only dwarf, and not interesing moore about HD ED, PRA epilepsia and others problems

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10745
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Old 08-01-2010, 22:22   #9
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yes Daiva, we can open these topics: dwarfism, broken tails, HD,ED, epilepsy, lost teeth, shynnes, not correct bitting, mixing between saarloses, Mutaras......
And our population will have only 10 wolfdogs
yes, "broken tail" is problem, I think in much countries nobody control it on bonitation and in breeding is much dogs with it.
We can only inform all judges they must touch every dog on bonitation.
is much potentional problems, we know it.
But in the end we can be happy, because our breed is health. Look at german sheepdogs
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Old 08-01-2010, 22:28   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
yes Daiva, we can open these topics: dwarfism, broken tails, HD,ED, epilepsy, lost teeth, shynnes, not correct bitting, mixing between saarloses, Mutaras......
And our population will have only 10 wolfdogs
yes, "broken tail" is problem, I think in much countries nobody control it on bonitation and in breeding is much dogs with it.
We can only inform all judges they must touch every dog on bonitation.
is much potentional problems, we know it.
But in the end we can be happy, because our breed is health. Look at german sheepdogs
but when have this name topic, this ONLY help for us all. Or not?
But we mas speak about this. I think You too not have 100 % healty dog like and others, alls dogs have this same grand- grand- grand- parents, and all mas speak about this. If dogs not have problems in reality this does not mean this problem be in future.
I only please, people when know dogs who have this BROKEN tail please send my private info if not want say this in forum. And realy not believe in this when my say " this not exist".
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Old 08-01-2010, 22:32   #11
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and p.s. this is very good for us.
Mijke work with dwarf,
Ina -with HD genetic test,
I -with broken tail
others with...
and in this method we can have very good info data basa about problems in one place.
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Old 08-01-2010, 22:35   #12
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You can have info from czech bonitations on czech club page. results are there after every bonitation.
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Old 08-01-2010, 22:37   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
You can have info from czech bonitations on czech club page. results are there after every bonitation.
yes, only I mas think writte to your club - send to Dana or others contact person? and please all info about this, not all ( old ) bonitation are publiced in cz csv club web site.
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Old 08-01-2010, 22:42   #14
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Yes, old bonitation are not there. "Somebody" attacked our old club pages and gived there some virus. We know who it was.
So club must create new pages and old info are not there. You must contact Helena or Dana about old results of bonitations. ask them.
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Old 08-01-2010, 22:44   #15
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Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
Yes, old bonitation are not there. "Somebody" attacked our old club pages and gived there some virus. We know who it was.
So club must create new pages and old info are not there. You must contact Helena or Dana about old results of bonitations. ask them.
ok thanks i make this
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Old 09-01-2010, 01:05   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfin View Post
but when have this name topic, this ONLY help for us all. Or not?
But we mas speak about this. I think You too not have 100 % healty dog like and others, alls dogs have this same grand- grand- grand- parents, and all mas speak about this. If dogs not have problems in reality this does not mean this problem be in future.
I only please, people when know dogs who have this BROKEN tail please send my private info if not want say this in forum. And realy not believe in this when my say " this not exist".
Thanks Daiva!

Personal don't know this problem in Holland with CsW, but only in my other breeds. But when I discover here a CsW with this problem I will inform you!

In every breed their will appear more and more genetic health defects, because of the small gene pools. (for example because of the "Founder-effect"; when a superior male was used in almost all family groups)

That is why in some breeds it is already obligated by the breed clubs to do all available DNA tests before breeding. And some breed clubs requires blood samples of all stud dogs and their offspring. (so they can use it in future for new DNA tests for the breed.)
Genetic specialists and universities are telling more and more that the possible inheritance of diseases can become more clear when the health info of a breed is linked to pedigrees.

Some breeds did start with international databases with all test results, health info and all death causes.
But when breeders don't want to publish test info and health info (because they are afraid for "bad name") it is only short time thinking for a breed. :
(and in my opinion only foolish commercial thinking)
In years will become clear how great this "behavior" was for the future of some breeds......
How many breeds will survive the next 50 or 100 years???

It would be much better when breeders don't tell any longer fairy tales about the great health of a breed to future buyers and interested people.
On BBC and in Holland were already programs with info about awful diseases in some breeds. And I hope there will come more such info programs!
And only when breeders will more cooperate and honest share test and health info, we can save breeds for future.

It is a pity that even here on this informative site we can't discuss "open and honest" about health problems, test info, how to solve problems, because of total useless accusations to each other.

We have to realize that most writers here "know" each other and understand what is going on.
But we also have a lot of "only readers" and they maybe can think because of all these discussions that something is wrong with "honest breeders" who speak about problems.

Maybe it is a possibility to start first also a special breed/stud dog forum (just like the administrator forum) on this site (for registered breeders and stud dog owners) where we can speak and discuss more open without fear. And later on we can inform everybody.

I have more info and questions then only dwarfism. And till now I only can share and speak about this with people I trust (because I don't want to harm any breeder in a public forum)

For example only a personal one: When I did have a kind of disaster with my last litter (all pups dead in last week before birth ), I did speak about this open and honest in the Dutch forum. I did make several tests with my female and did let make special investigation on all dead pups, but there was not any reason found. But I would like to have info of other breeders who did have bad experiences with a litter without the reason was found.
And till now I only did share all the details and info with a few breeders that I know and trust. And from them, I did receive personal also honest info about "strange births" and "dead pups".
But it would be great if more breeders could share such info without fear for bad name in public!


I know personal for example also CsW's with EPI, Epilepsy and DM and I am sure there will be for sure more in this breed! Just like there will be (or appear) other genetic diseases.
And now we have still the option to be silent, keep our eyes closed, or speak honest about this and share the info and try to avoid more health problems.
Later on it is maybe to late......
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Old 09-01-2010, 01:16   #17
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Yes, epilepsy is I think more often than dwarfism. Our breedcomission watch it too.
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Old 09-01-2010, 01:47   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfin
Mijke work with dwarf,
Ina -with HD genetic test,
I -with broken tail
others with...
Only for one small add here, i'm searching for informations about eyes diseases in the breed and ED, so who knows something about it and wants share informations i'm open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijke
It is a pity that even here on this informative site we can't discuss "open and honest" about health problems, test info, how to solve problems, because of total useless accusations to each other
It can be partialy solved with more strict act by the moderation here, as I wrote before, is only the users decide it, but even we can't hold poisonous tongues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijke
Maybe it is a possibility to start first also a special breed/stud dog forum (just like the administrator forum) on this site (for registered breeders and stud dog owners) where we can speak and discuss more open without fear. And later on we can inform everybody.
Its simply a great idea!
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Old 09-01-2010, 07:45   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
Only for one small add here, i'm searching for informations about eyes diseases in the breed and ED, so who knows something about it and wants share informations i'm open.
As we have to do eye-tests with specialists every year for breeding I can ask for special results in CSW.
I know of a few cases of glaucoma, nobody knows if the cases are caused genetically, according to German specialists you can breed the offspring as long as you make eye tests.
I heard of a maybe-case of PRA in North Germany close to the Dutch border but it wasn´t sure then and it was then already under discussion that there are SWD-mixes. SWD have a huge problem with genetic PRA. As the dog was controlled in Germany it won´t get breeding permission here, the specialists are very strict.
By the way eye tests are offered on every German CACIB, they also are a little bit cheaper. The DOK, the organisation of eye-specialists, does delegate some members to every exhibition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
It can be partialy solved with more strict act by the moderation here, as I wrote before, is only the users decide it, but even we can't hold poisonous tongues.



Its simply a great idea!
I also think this forum is a great idea and I am for more strict acting by the moderators.

Ina

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Old 09-01-2010, 17:00   #20
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Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
So, if it be the will of the users, I can start to follow the common internet rules of "good sense" as they should be used, for moderate this forum, as its done in the majority of the others internet forums.
I hope for the future that it stil will be "mine own free will" to judge for myself if something is a fairytale, gossip, a personel attack or the truth .

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