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Old 03-12-2011, 17:25   #1
tupacs2legs
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Question csv's and 'wolfblood'

i was wondering if people can help me out on this theory,as other than the basics(and husky coat colour)i an definitely no expert in 'genetics'

http://www.wolfdogproject.com/percent.htm (the 'marble' section)

i know csv's are a breed of dog,and classed as such as there is no 'recent' wolf blood,but according to this theory they dont contain any 'wolfblood' it has been 'bred out',if this is the case,what explains their 'wolfy behaviour' and why would only the wolfblood go of course i understand that some csv's would be more wolfy and some more gsd like as its a lottery what genes each dog would inherit..no?its said wolf genes are not inherited the same way as dog ones are,how does that work?and how does that effect the wild wolves that are 'said' to contain dog
also based on this, is 'phenotyping' a 'wolfdog'(or wolfcross) of unkown parentage accurate? as there is no doubting imo that csv's look wolfy and look like they contain wolfblood,but if it is said they are not classed as wolfdogs i do not see how it would work with low or mid content looking dog

i mean,i dont care either way,as i dont wish to own a 'pet wolf' i want my DOGS,but im just a little confused ,any thoughts?(if i have explained my self properly)

thanks
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Old 03-12-2011, 20:59   #2
Jennin Lauma
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Wolf genes don't mysteriously disappear. If you pair a wolf and a dog, and then again pair two puppies from that litter to a wolf and to a dog, obviously the other will produce puppies with more wolf genes, and the other will produce pups of lower wolf content.

As it comes to breeding wolfdogs to wolfdogs over many generations, you can basically go either way: selecting for or against the wolfy traits (= wolf genes).

Personally I believe that in CsV, there are breeders who select more for the doggy traits, such as the working abilities/trainability, and also those who select mainly (if not only) for the wolfy traits, such as the looks.

The wolf% on paper is only theorethical (mathematical calculation). Genes don't work that way, but morely, as you noted yourslef, it is a lottery.
But if you consiously select FOR certain traits, (ie BREED), you will -to some extent- be able to manipulate the lottery.

And then, I think we also have to remember that peoplel aren't always honest, and undoubtably there are breeders who have recently back crossed CsV to wolves & other higher content wolfdogs for the desired wolfy looks. So the theorethical (mathematical) wolf%'s calculated by the given pedigree information, is not always accurate in reality.
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:15   #3
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There is something more to take into consideration. It is not possible to calculate the exact percentage because dog and wolf have a lot of their DNA in common and they're anyway so similar that they can breed together having a fertile offspring (as we very well know ).

So the question is: are they only genes and blood who give the wolfy behaviour or is it principally the breeding of certain characters (more docile and so on)?
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Old 12-12-2011, 14:14   #4
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Not only do they have most of their genes in common, but it is important to remember that most phenotypic traits are a result of work of multiple genes in different time of the development of the individual. A lot of genes do not produce things characterized easily, like the pigment color and deposition in skin and hair, but they regulate the expression of other genes or activity of individual cellular processes.

As we do not know, what is the function of the genes which are different between wolf and dog (I am actually not sure in what way the genetic difference between the two is specified - but I doubt it is on the level of genes), we really do only select for some physical/behavioral traits which are actually a result of both genotype and environment.

So, really the wolf-blood percentage has absolutely no relevance once you do any selection, it is only relevant in completely random combination of the parents and only works on average in statistically relevant size of the groups you try to characterize. Theoretically, even absurd things are possible with selection. For example, if the only gene that was different between the dog and wolf was eye color, and it was just dominant single-gene trait, then you can take a wolf and mix every generation to dog only, as long as you pick up only the yellow-eyed puppies, you will have a 50% wolf (according to genes) for ever, even thought the "wolfblood content" decreased to almost 0. Of course that's absurd, but statistically, mixing 50% with 100% gives 75% in average in population, which would be true, but the population will consist of (again statistically) 50% of 50%wolf/dog, and 50% of pure 100% dog.
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Old 20-12-2011, 15:50   #5
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I thought always that the example shown with the black and red marbles would be right. But I know to many litters of F 1, F 2 animals - csw too -, where only 1-2 out of 6 to 8 pups are doggie like in behaviour and the rest is more wolfy. So far I remember the same happend to Karel Hartl, that he could go on only with selecting and breeding with a few pups but not all out of one litter. So it is more the point of behavioural selection - and of course the looks of the pup. If the marble explanation would be true, there would be more "dogs" in F 1- F 3 generations.

So how you can find out if more wolf or more dog is a canine? From my point of view it is a matter of watching the behaviour in absolutely first place. And then of course the look. But if you work well with your "wolf", genes will change. But of course it will not change the behaviour of that animal, but when this particular animal will have pups, there will be changed genes given to the pups. But it is the harder and longer way to select.

Socialization the pups is not the point to make a dog out of a wolfy wolfdog. I did it with 3 of my high content pups. I socialized them all three the absolut same way. But there was from the begining only one dog - and I could not change anything in the two others - a bit maybe but not in the way how we understand socialization.

Christian

Last edited by hanninadina; 20-12-2011 at 15:52.
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Old 20-12-2011, 19:40   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina View Post
Socialization the pups is not the point to make a dog out of a wolfy wolfdog. I did it with 3 of my high content pups. I socialized them all three the absolut same way. But there was from the begining only one dog - and I could not change anything in the two others - a bit maybe but not in the way how we understand socialization.

Christian
I agree with this, and also it can be extrapolated as well to all sorts of canids..!
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