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Old 09-10-2011, 23:46   #1
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Default what can be done about 'misinterpretation in the uk

as you guys know,there are not many pure csv's and swh in the uk but still there are some.....the breed (csv)is not established in its own right and many people have not met a pure...but quite a few have met crosses(mixes)and own them....its become more and more apparent that some of these 'owners' call their dogs pure or vlcaks! ...when pushed and asked they explain what breed/types are in their dogs..so they do know that they do not own pure

i also know of a few dogs that were bought as pure and sold on as pure(not directly from the breeder) yet one look at the dog shows they are not(and also where they were originally bred)so these people do not even know what a wd should even look like let alone act like!

i feel its very damaging to the breed as these are not representatives of the BREED yet are being 'passed off' as such...but what can be done?...i fear not alot

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Old 10-10-2011, 00:20   #2
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err how man people have you come across that pass off their cross as a pure csv?
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Old 10-10-2011, 00:30   #3
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err how man people have you come across that pass off their cross as a pure csv?
what do u mean 'err'? why would i lie ....alot!! and its not only me that has noticed this

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Old 10-10-2011, 01:08   #4
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why would you think that I was implying you were lying??
err = even crosses are few and far between, so how many is alot?
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Old 10-10-2011, 01:19   #5
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why would you think that I was implying you were lying??
err = even crosses are few and far between, so how many is alot?
no they are not
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:14   #6
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i don't think anything can be done, except to post the information publicly as much as you can about specific known crosses and kennels.. :/

it's not just a problem in the UK.. there are even owners who take their mixes to FCI dog shows and nobody can stop them cause they've got the correct papers never mind that they don't look nor behave like CsV....
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:17   #7
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as you guys know,there are not many pure csv's and swh in the uk but still there are some.....the breed (csv)is not established in its own right and many people have not met a pure...but quite a few have met crosses(mixes)and own them....its become more and more apparent that some of these 'owners' call their dogs pure or vlcaks! ...when pushed and asked they explain what breed/types are in their dogs..so they do know that they do not own pure

i also know of a few dogs that were bought as pure and sold on as pure(not directly from the breeder) yet one look at the dog shows they are not(and also where they were originally bred)so these people do not even know what a wd should even look like let alone act like!

i feel its very damaging to the breed as these are not representatives of the BREED yet are being 'passed off' as such...but what can be done?...i fear not alot
My Girl was bought as pure and can be traced through WD but because of the CW thing we can never really be sure, I believe she is pure and think that Lee ( breeder) sold her in good faith, but in all honesty it is when we get back to the european breeder (CW) that there are doubts
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:24   #8
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My Girl was bought as pure and can be traced through WD but because of the CW thing we can never really be sure, I believe she is pure and think that Lee ( breeder) sold her in good faith, but in all honesty it is when we get back to the european breeder (CW) that there are doubts
u missed the point really chris,im not saying that...its people buying crosses of these dogs KNOWING they are crosses but telling people that do not know any better they are pure.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:28   #9
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u missed the point really chris,im not saying that...its people buying crosses of these dogs KNOWING they are crosses but telling people that do not know any better they are pure.
Sorry i understand now, I was just saying it can go back further than owners, breeder to breeders of the grandparents etc
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Old 10-10-2011, 13:04   #10
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Sorry i understand now, I was just saying it can go back further than owners, breeder to breeders of the grandparents etc
Was it ever determined if Brix Bix was pure or not? I know originally with Paul's litters there was some question: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9711
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Old 10-10-2011, 13:50   #11
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Was it ever determined if Brix Bix was pure or not? I know originally with Paul's litters there was some question: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9711
is that meant as a dig?

i was referring to the crossbreeds that are n.i or gsd mixes that the breeders confirm as such
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Old 10-10-2011, 18:27   #12
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is that meant as a dig?

i was referring to the crossbreeds that are n.i or gsd mixes that the breeders confirm as such
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the question too then.

I thought you were talking about dogs with fake pedigrees or so.
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Old 10-10-2011, 21:56   #13
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There will always be those who claim to have something they don't, sadly there is no way to stop this.

What may help is, educating the public about the breed and the crosses and what they should be looking for.


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Old 10-10-2011, 22:52   #14
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is that meant as a dig?

i was referring to the crossbreeds that are n.i or gsd mixes that the breeders confirm as such
No, not a dig at all. Two of Andre's puppies - Jorja and Raider - were (according to the wolfdog.org database, stemming from the info on forum member "neesk") reportedly living in the US. Given the situation with Paul, de Louba Tar, etc. - and the lack of transparency/honesty, I became quite interested (back in 2008...) in the fact that someone had imported "suspicious pedigree" dogs - and what it might mean for our breed in the US (there are also lines in those breedings which must be carefully considered for health, especially HD). I think the info about the dogs living in the US might actually be wrong...at some point "neesk" and user "malgor" were merged into one on the forum, but it's hard to say.

In any case, I am quite serious in wondering if the questioning of Brix Bis's pedigree was ever resolved. He is clearly a fundamental dog in the breed for the UK as it exists today - should the breed become accepted with the KC, I suspect many Americans (given the fear of language barriers) will try to import from the UK. The direction owners/breeders in the UK decide to go could have an impact for the breed here as well.

Does the KC have a policy on DNA profiling of imported dogs? The AKC requires all imported dogs to be DNA profiled before registering a litter from them - if it is the same with the KC, it would be tricky to register even pure dogs if the initially imported dogs were deceased or unavailable (and unable to be profiled). Our club has requested the AKC to create mandatory DNA profiling for domestically bred CSVs as well...but we shall see. Now we must deal with the lack of reliability of CW dogs here...it's a shame how innocent people must be left picking up the pieces from lies of other breeders.
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Old 10-10-2011, 23:34   #15
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Originally Posted by GalomyOak View Post
No, not a dig at all. Two of Andre's puppies - Jorja and Raider - were (according to the wolfdog.org database, stemming from the info on forum member "neesk") reportedly living in the US. Given the situation with Paul, de Louba Tar, etc. - and the lack of transparency/honesty, I became quite interested (back in 2008...) in the fact that someone had imported "suspicious pedigree" dogs - and what it might mean for our breed in the US (there are also lines in those breedings which must be carefully considered for health, especially HD). I think the info about the dogs living in the US might actually be wrong...at some point "neesk" and user "malgor" were merged into one on the forum, but it's hard to say.

In any case, I am quite serious in wondering if the questioning of Brix Bis's pedigree was ever resolved. He is clearly a fundamental dog in the breed for the UK as it exists today - should the breed become accepted with the KC, I suspect many Americans (given the fear of language barriers) will try to import from the UK. The direction owners/breeders in the UK decide to go could have an impact for the breed here as well.

Does the KC have a policy on DNA profiling of imported dogs? The AKC requires all imported dogs to be DNA profiled before registering a litter from them - if it is the same with the KC, it would be tricky to register even pure dogs if the initially imported dogs were deceased or unavailable (and unable to be profiled). Our club has requested the AKC to create mandatory DNA profiling for domestically bred CSVs as well...but we shall see. Now we must deal with the lack of reliability of CW dogs here...it's a shame how innocent people must be left picking up the pieces from lies of other breeders.
thanks marcy for ur reply.

no the kc themselves do not require dna,they require the 'pedigree' but i would say the way forward would be to do it regardless(dna).

to be fair..the non fci dogs that are here may or may not be able to be registered...wont make me love my boy any the less

without sounding 'bitchy' i would worry more about the cw dogs we have here more than my own dogs line.(for now)

...maybe this should be on a different thread?

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Old 10-10-2011, 23:37   #16
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Originally Posted by Tazer View Post
There will always be those who claim to have something they don't, sadly there is no way to stop this.

What may help is, educating the public about the breed and the crosses and what they should be looking for.


Taz
yes,thats what im trying feel im fighting a loosing battle.....alone(it feels like) lol
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:56   #17
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We will fight this battle someday here...when people realize more that our breed exists. It's something malamute owners have been dealing with for a long time - when wolf cross owners want to avoid detection from breed specific legislation, home owners insurance, or if the wolf cross is involved in some sort of legal trouble. I think it is only sometime until the owner of a wolfcross (or other mixed-breed with some similarity) claims it to be a Vlcak here...hopefully not in the case of the dog biting someone or attacking another dog. And of course we have Tamaskans etc. here, but so far (other than Aatu people trying to use our males for studs ) we have had no problems with any of the Tamaskan factions trying to claim they are pure Vlcaks or vice versa. But no, I don't guess there is any way to stop other people from making false claims. You can only protect yourself as best you can...build a good public image with the breed, get them involved where they are seen in a happy way - dog sport, therapy work, etc. I am adament about making sure there are no questions about what or how my dogs or their offspring are, especially for breed "outsiders"...in any way I can - AKC pedigree, DNA profile, importing dogs from reputable breeders, training in many different things, making sure my dog is always under control and social if it is out in public.
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Old 11-10-2011, 23:57   #18
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yes,thats what im trying feel im fighting a loosing battle.....alone(it feels like) lol
Isnt scruffts part of the discover dogs show in november? Or am I getting things confused?

If so, how does it work. Are only kc reg breeds allowed stalls/stans or can non kc reg breeds/mixes have them too?

Would be a great future opportunity for education if there is a way to get the csv in there.


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Old 12-10-2011, 00:38   #19
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Originally Posted by Tazer View Post
Isnt scruffts part of the discover dogs show in november? Or am I getting things confused?

If so, how does it work. Are only kc reg breeds allowed stalls/stans or can non kc reg breeds/mixes have them too?

Would be a great future opportunity for education if there is a way to get the csv in there.


Taz
as far as i know(could be wrong) scrufts is the competition..and its 'showing' and u have to qualify...also srufts is for crossbreeds
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:29   #20
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Originally Posted by Tazer View Post
Isnt scruffts part of the discover dogs show in november? Or am I getting things confused?

If so, how does it work. Are only kc reg breeds allowed stalls/stans or can non kc reg breeds/mixes have them too?

Would be a great future opportunity for education if there is a way to get the csv in there.


Taz
I think Non-KC breeds can have stands - as long as there is some recognition. It might be that the dogs have to be on the import register though or have registration docs from the relevant organisation....

However - I will drop an email to the KC.....
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