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Old 10-04-2010, 21:24   #41
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And actually, if you think about it, all dogs except those few bred expressly for companionship (and even then, a large number of the littles were ratters) all have a job. Just because almost of today's Rough Collies and Retriever types have been relegated to companionship/family dogs only means that their direction as a breed has gone away from work - not that they were always there from the start.
Isn't this the whole point everyone's trying to make? Don't repeat history! These breeds are being brought up as an example of how real, functional, working dogs have been watered down to the point where they're just soft companion animals with different looks for different tastes. There are plenty of breeds out there that we don't need to turn the CsV into "another pretty face." Divisions in a breed are NOT inevitable if we stop it in its tracks! Just because it happens and it's the norm, it does NOT mean it has to be tolerated!!

I just want to clarify that when I said breeding needs to be open to interpretation (regarding rules of a breed club) I meant in more subtle ways of testing a dog's working character, I don't in any way mean that a breeder could go & say, "Eh, I want my dogs to be more calm & easy to manage, to make great pets!" when the dog should not in any way have that sort of temperament. The whole point of purebred dogs should be breed preservation, which means holding to and testing correct temperament. When a breeder strives to develop their line, it's to come as close as possible to their vision of the breed standard, not to bastardize it. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's how I feel on the subject.
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Old 10-04-2010, 21:31   #42
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Isn't this the whole point everyone's trying to make? Don't repeat history! These breeds are being brought up as an example of how real, functional, working dogs have been watered down to the point where they're just soft companion animals with different looks for different tastes. There are plenty of breeds out there that we don't need to turn the CsV into "another pretty face." Divisions in a breed are NOT inevitable if we stop it in its tracks! Just because it happens and it's the norm, it does NOT mean it has to be tolerated!!
I'll agree to disagree then. My pet Dobe is not the same as my pet Minpin, who simply 'looks different' than one another. Surely, they are not working dogs nor are they from working lines, but they have characters though not working drive of their forebears.

I am NOT advocating turning the CSV into a soft companion breed.. Just merely musing.
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Old 10-04-2010, 21:48   #43
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My opinion, for what it's worth...

I absolutely want to see this breed move forward with working goals in mind. But as Nebulosa pointed out, we are not in a place - as a breed - in Europe, and certainly not in the US, to discredit dogs if they don't have titles. The breed doesn't have enough genetic diversity to withstand that kind of pressure on selection at this point. I think it is a very noble goal for the breed/club to reach for one day - and of course there should be controls on breeding with dogs with good health, and no disqualifying features - especially in structure and temperament. I think a breeding commission is an excellent idea.

A few misconceptions about AKC tracking. First off, tracking (ground) and trailing (air) are totally different scent theories - trailing is used in SAR, and typically has a quicker and more efficient accuracy. Tracking trials are completely blind - the flags are only used in training. It's an excellent sport, my CSVs have very deep noses and deviate from the track very little in comparison to many of the other dogs out there (Goldens, GSD, Weimeraner). Don't think it should be used as a sole qualifier of a breedable dog...

Won't get into American v. Europe. I know good and bad breeders of all mentioned breeds in both places. I have an American bred GSD from heavy Swiss and German lines, with Lord vom Gleisd... featured recently. Love her to death, makes me crazy to work with her.

I am glad these discussions are happening - even if they are uncomfortable. It's important! I think it's also important to keep in mind that ALL of our experiences in the US with the breed are limited - I know my perceptions certainly changed after my visit to Europe last spring where I met many dogs and breeders - important to remember there is still quite a bit of variation within the breed, not everyone's experiences will be the same.

Marcy
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Old 11-04-2010, 03:17   #44
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Yukidomari, I think maybe you should look into getting a different breed, it doesn't sound like what you're looking for is a CsV.
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Old 11-04-2010, 05:16   #45
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Yukidomari, I think maybe you should look into getting a different breed, it doesn't sound like what you're looking for is a CsV.
Thanks for your opinion, Soniakanavle.
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Old 11-04-2010, 06:28   #46
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Thanks for your opinion, Soniakanavle.
Hahaha and thanks for the sarcasm.
My point is, the only reason you've mentioned that you want this breed for is because you 'go hiking a lot.' Um.. ANY breed can hike a lot.
Also you seem to travel a lot by plane, [Japan and back] the one time I flew my CsV [from Montana to California] he had extreme panic attacks the entire flight and it took me a good hour to calm him down in the airport after and the flight crew warned me to never fly with him again, so for his sake I am restricted to driving when I want to travel.
Also I think most CsV [not all I know but it's a thought to consider] have a high prey drive/will chase small animals. Have you thought about what would happen if yours didn't fit in with your Min Pin and other little dog??

See, I'm not just trying to be mean, I just assumed you joined this forum to take real advice from real CsV owners since we have actual experience with the breed and I think it's our duty to warn/weed out potential buyers that might not know what they're getting into. THAT'S my opinion.
A CsV is a lifelong commitment and I waited/researched 6+ years from first wanting one to actually having my dreams come true.
I'm sure there are plenty of dogs in this country, shelter dogs, mutts etc that would love to take a hike with you.
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Old 11-04-2010, 07:10   #47
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Sonia, Jing....

I have had the opportunity to work with both of you in different facets. I have been communicating with Jing for a couple of years now - she has been exploring every crevice of the breed one can in living over here. I had the opportunity to meet her and her friends/family in the past month when they drove down for the day to meet the pack. I also had the opportunity to meet her dogs - and was quite impressed by the level of care and training that was apparent. I believe Jing is stepping into the idea of ownership very carefully, with excellent goals in mind, and an objective frame of mind...and would have no problem, as a breeder, offering her a puppy...

Sonia, you are one of our originals here...a dedicated owner who has a lot to offer to our collective knowledge of the breed in the US. I was really excited when you offered to serve as our Pacific contact! I have not had the opportunity to meet you - but look forward to meeting both you and Flint very soon!

It's cool to have different ideas, and points of view - that's what makes an organization strong. I think things can easily be misinterpreted on the internet too...I really hope we can bury hatchets, put aside prejudgments of one another, and keep things cool - finally the club is building momentum and cohesiveness, which is, above all, what we need right now. Would really hate to lose either of you in this venture!!!

Marcy
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Old 11-04-2010, 07:13   #48
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Never mind! We will try to play nice.

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Old 11-04-2010, 15:47   #49
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It's cool to have different ideas, and points of view - that's what makes an organization strong.
I agree with this 100%! I think it's when it gets to the point where people are too afraid (or feel it's too hopeless) to go against the status quo that you start to get problems where you no longer see different options anymore. I think that's why a lot of breed clubs have the problems they do where they're not willing to admit they have issues, because they resent so much that they've been doing things for so long that they can't fathom that they possibly have gone off course. Even if you don't agree with something, just the act of discussion while you hash things out can make you at least see things you hadn't before and make adaptations accordingly. If you have to "justify" your position on something (the right way, mind you, buy making an actual persuasive argument) it automatically makes you reevaluate your position every time, making it stronger, or possibly making you see where you need to change. It's as good a rule for life is it is with breed clubs.

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A few misconceptions about AKC tracking. First off, tracking (ground) and trailing (air) are totally different scent theories - trailing is used in SAR, and typically has a quicker and more efficient accuracy. Tracking trials are completely blind - the flags are only used in training. It's an excellent sport, my CSVs have very deep noses and deviate from the track very little in comparison to many of the other dogs out there (Goldens, GSD, Weimeraner). Don't think it should be used as a sole qualifier of a breedable dog...
I'm glad you posted this! I was under the impression that AKC tracking WAS more like trailing because the rules weren't as strict about the dog keeping its nose to the ground. I also don't think ANY of the sports we've been talking about should be used as a sole qualifier of breedable stock. There are obviously going to be a lot of things at play regarding testing dogs, and I feel that if we are going to at the very least (as a breed club) recommend that the dogs obtain titles, I think it should be confirmation, and "something else" that would be picked off of a list. For me, this is more to prove that the breeder is dedicated to doing the best possible for the breed less than it is about the dog's actual ability.

This brings me to my next thought... While I like the idea of a breeding commission, I wonder if the club should just be more strict as to who it actually recognizes as breeders? Maybe there can be an application process stricter than just regular membership in the club for people to be on an "approved breeder" list or something? Then there could be something on there about confirmation and evaluating stock for correct structure for endurance and correct temperament. This way, titles could be encouraged, but the ultimate discretion would still be left up to the breeder to decide if an untitled dog would still work well in the program. Or maybe something about at least one of the dogs needing titles? Or a combination of at least one working/sport title and one confirmation title between the two of them?

Mind you, I have zero experience about how breed clubs typically work, so I have no idea how feasible any of this is, just throwing out ideas.
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Old 11-04-2010, 22:11   #50
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OK, so my question to the American Dobie, GSD, etc. folks is this: If they truly love the breed, why did they change it so it no longer behaves as it was designed to? Just because they liked it's looks and not it's character? In that case, are they really stewards of the breed with it's best interests at heart?
Removing aggression/sharpness from a breed designed to be a "man-stopper" just because of "bad press"? THAT'S THE BREED. If you can't handle the temperament, get another breed - don't turn it into dishwater!
If you go to Jimmy Moses' Kaleef GSD site, he guarantees excellent "show" dogs... GSDs were designed to be WORKING DOGS. Turning them into a pretty sidegait with no working ability is reprehensible! How dare they say they "love the breed"?
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Old 11-04-2010, 22:48   #51
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I wonder if the club should just be more strict as to who it actually recognizes as breeders? Maybe there can be an application process stricter than just regular membership in the club for people to be on an "approved breeder" list or something? Then there could be something on there about confirmation and evaluating stock for correct structure for endurance and correct temperament. This way, titles could be encouraged, but the ultimate discretion would still be left up to the breeder to decide if an untitled dog would still work well in the program. Or maybe something about at least one of the dogs needing titles? Or a combination of at least one working/sport title and one confirmation title between the two of them?
Often in wolfdog breeding you can meet owners which want to make a litter, one or two maybe, but not be a "real active breeder", sometimes you can meet by these "owners wich made litters with the help of the club" very interessing mates, with very interessing lines and so, also by "mere owners" you can meet very interessing females, that would help to improve the breed, so we cannot forget about them.
If you make restriction for "who can be breeder" these kind of people can simply give up, because they will is only make one or two litters and nothing more, so, its not worth be a registered breeder with everything ok.
I think you should not have more "strict rules" than the basic like health tests for breed and the acceptance of the litter by the club breed comission, if someone wants to mate the female, the breed comission must be there for point if the female can be used and with wich the males after the oficial health results.

For these kennels wich want continue breeding, I mean, realy breed the breed, you can make something like different class looking who do more right things (like health tests of the pups they breed, titles and so), to point kennels who have most quality in their selection and so, encourage the other breeders to do the same.

Sometimes you can see owners wich started with the will to do only one litter, for see the "miracle of the life" that in the end turned in a good breeder that helped a lot the breed in the country.

So, the breed comission in the end, would exist for avoid that uninformed people do the wrong thing.
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Old 11-04-2010, 23:40   #52
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"If they truly love the breed, why did they change it so it no longer behaves as it was designed to?"

Obviously if you're of the camp where you think that dogs should do what they were meant to do evermore, then you wouldn't agree with them. And actually, shepherding has not much to do in the way of protection since there are still lots of shepherds that do, well, sheep herding, and then there are flock guardians. Two different groups, totally different types of dogs. German Shepherds were, for a short time, a shepherding dog.. at the beginning the Great War, they were transformed into an all around working dog, because it was believed that if they stuck solely to shepherding, which was even then a diminishing activity in those parts, they would go down the drain with that, too.

AmDobes are still one of the easiest to train dogs there are.. very intuitive, still a very easy student. That the sharpness has been toned down some, may to some people be detrimental, and indeed there are a lot of people who find some discontinuity in that. If you want to view their character today as 'dishwater', well, that is sad. People who breed AmDobes don't do it because they don't care about the character.. they just care about certain aspects of it more than others. You can choose to disagree with that but the dogs certainly are not trash with useless temperaments. Their dogs are simply for another audience. And you can also disagree that there shouldn't be another audience, that all working dogs should just be for the working audience.. again, difference of opinion. Their temperament didn't turn into the way it is today because they did not care for temperament.. it was purposely bred this way, so if you may view their dogs as an result of misled or careless breeding, then we can just agree to disagree.

Do I have a problem with working kennels? Nope, not at all. I have admiration for both parties.. actually, as it goes with greyhounds, kennels (working and show) find that breeding from a strict working line to a solely show line can often produce dogs that are both very able and of type. I think any kennel who concentrates almost exclusively on one or the other will undoubtedly obviously bias the breed in some way. By working together I think that the best of both spheres can be had. Unfortunately, it often becomes 'us' vs 'them' mentality, which I actually think is more harmful to a breed than just accepting that there are all different types of kennels that emphasize or excel at different aspects and trying to work together, rather than section off into separate little niches and then everyone breeding dogs to separate extremes - ie., very pretty dogs, very soft dogs, very sporty dogs, very hard dogs, the group that doesn't care much at all about conformation so long as the job gets done, etc.

By and by, regarding breeder listings.. I know the French Bulldog Club of America has, for instance, a rule that doesn't allow the listing of breeders if the breeder has not bred at least one CH. titled dog in the past. For a companion bred pet, not a bad measure at all IMHO. Course, the Frenchie also has a good solid population and can afford that type of discernment.. it'll be a long, long time before numbers of CSV are sufficient so as to allow for that kind of rule.

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Old 12-04-2010, 19:41   #53
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Being in dogs for 17 years, and training literally just about every breed from Chinese Cresteds to Tibetan Mastiffs, I do think Dobies are, overall, a smart breed. That's why I hate to see them watered down here in America - something I want to avoid happening in CsVs.
As for Mrcy's point about not being able to disregard untitled breed stock with our numbers so low, I also agree. So how about this: Breed Wardens.
A totally objective set of opinions from those dedicated to preserving the correct character of the breed? Perhaps we can take some of the American Temperament Test Society's exercises, some "courage tests" from the GSD world, ZTP from Rottie folks and make up our own test to judge CsV character? I am sure the original CsV breeding program MUST have had something similar, no? Perhaps Karel Hartl can help us design one? Perhaps have a "board" of three different judges or have three different tests under different judges and that would determine breeding suitability without having to title a dog?
I think something like that would be more than acceptable to all factions of CsV fanciers...
Thoughts?
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Old 12-04-2010, 20:30   #54
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So how about this: Breed Wardens.
A totally objective set of opinions from those dedicated to preserving the correct character of the breed? Perhaps we can take some of the American Temperament Test Society's exercises, some "courage tests" from the GSD world, ZTP from Rottie folks and make up our own test to judge CsV character? I am sure the original CsV breeding program MUST have had something similar, no? Perhaps Karel Hartl can help us design one? Perhaps have a "board" of three different judges or have three different tests under different judges and that would determine breeding suitability without having to title a dog?
I think something like that would be more than acceptable to all factions of CsV fanciers...
Thoughts?
Good idea. But how will those wardens/judges be qualified? Judges at actual shows have had years and years of experience looking at all different types of dogs and many have been breeders in one breed or the other, as well.

Also, bonitations as they exist for CSVs roughly touch upon temperamental aspects.. all dogs can have a bonitation done regardless of having a fault or not. Perhaps a modified program like the existing bonitation, with more of an emphasis and spectrum on temperament would be workable?
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Old 12-04-2010, 20:52   #55
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Good idea. But how will those wardens/judges be qualified? Judges at actual shows have had years and years of experience looking at all different types of dogs and many have been breeders in one breed or the other, as well.
First I think the CsVCA (since this is about forming the club in the USA)should get the standard set - I know Marcy has the FCI (I think?) standard on the site:

http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/standard.html

Maybe we should look over the standard (with a magnifying glass) and decide if it needs editing in any way.

Then, members with voting rights to the CsVCA can appoint someone (does the appointed person need to be a member of the CsVCA?) or volunteer to be an aspect warden (physical, temperament etc. as examples) and then all voting members vote on the people who were nominated. Each warden serves for a one year term and then the CsVCA would repeat the process (much like board members). Multiple members so that the decisions aren't made by one person.

Right now there are very few CsV people in the USA so I think we could have some international help with this (I don't think it would require someone to be in the USA to be a warden?).

We should also get a code of ethics set up and stand by it 100% (nothing on that page yet) so that all owners and breeders (current and potential) know what the club would expect from them.
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Old 12-04-2010, 21:03   #56
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Speaking of ethics..

I would really like to see a breed club in which certain health testing is mandatory. I've seen lots of breed clubs in which it is 'strongly recommended'.. to me, that's not quite enough. Also minimum age at first breeding.. again, lots of breed clubs have a vague 'strongly recommended' after 18 months of age.. but not a deal breaker (though to me, it really should be a deal breaker).

Regarding titling.. I think that it's fine to list on the breeder referral, only those who have at least titled their dogs in some way.. because the breeder referral is basically for the general public. I do agree that the population itself isn't large enough for all untitled dogs to be genetically excluded, but perhaps a database (like the one here) for dogs in the US can be had, separate from a breeders' directory. That way it is still possible for those dogs to contribute internally, through the club, but they would not be the go-to source for outside persons curious to buy a dog.

In previous experience looking into another rare (in the US) breed, you sometimes get the people who take the 'well there are only 4 specimens of the breed in the states, so we can't exclude any of them' route.. including dogs with diagnosed problems. That would be disasterous.
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Old 12-04-2010, 21:10   #57
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I fully agree with health certifications - especially with genetic issues.

DM - unless both (direct) parents are Normal / Normal - the dog should be tested. Grandparents cannot be used - even if all 4 are normal / normal.

OFA - Hip certification.

CERF (Eyes)

Other genetic disorders should be noted. But also, the genetics themselves should be looked at. For example, with DM, an N/A dog could be bred to a N/N and statistically half the puppies would only be carriers (just don't breed an N/A to an N/A or even an A/A!!). This way if you have an extremely good dog with something like this you could attempt to breed it out without risking making it worse.

I'm sure there are many others that I'm not thinking of.

Titles - I think there should be at least some basic titling. Maybe we could inforperate our own titling structure specific for the breed or maybe stick to what's out there - agility, obedience, tracking, for example?

While we can't be too picky now, we should still look at what's being bred, even pulling dogs form breeding programs that clearly shouldn't be bred (poor hips, poor temperament etc..).
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Old 12-04-2010, 21:24   #58
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I would think there should be a committee formed to approve Breed Wardens. People who have a lot of experience in dogs (not necessarily CsV required as that would severely limit available and competent resources), training, titling, behavior, etc. For instance, I would trust judgment of my dogs by Fred Lanting who I don't think has even met a CsV yet. He literally wrote the book on Canine Orthopedics and has judged ALL kinds of breeds around the world, bred and titled dogs himself, and, if properly educated on our breed, would, in my opinion, be an excellent and impartial (since he doesn't have one) Breed Warden.
AKC Judge James Frederickson is also a judge who I respect greatly. There are also UKC judges, like Skip (forgot his last name, but he breeds Pit Bulls), who I think would also be an excellent resource.
I think once they are approved as a Breed Warden, I would think it should be a lifetime title, like a judge's position. Approving committees/boards would be elected and changing positions, of course, so that there is no political cliques going on.
I think we could take the Bonitation program and use that as at least our foundation...
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Old 12-04-2010, 22:45   #59
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There are also UKC judges, like Skip (forgot his last name, but he breeds Pit Bulls), who I think would also be an excellent resource.
Cecil (a.k.a. Skip) Miller.

I would be against the "lifetime" breed warden - once they're accepted what's their motivation to really keep the breed a priority?

Look at Hunte joining the GSDCA. While this is an extreme case, how could we tell someone who truly has the breed's best interest in mind as opposed to someone who is just a very good BS artist? At least with the election (or appointment) process they'd need to keep their priorities straight or else they'll get booted.

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Old 12-04-2010, 22:54   #60
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Lunas Mom, your idea is nice, but I see a huge problem there, know how to judge dogs and even be a good judge and vet does not mean know how to select the CzW breed, principaly if someone is already used with breeds that have such huge genetic pool like Pit Bulls, Labradors or Goldens, even if you educate this person, dificultly you will breake some already formed concepts, for exemple:
In Golden retriever, if you have a nice litter with good and interesting dogs, you repeat it and it will not be a problem, in CzW you take care in the chose of the owners, stay in touch with some of them and should not repeat the mate even if it was one of the nicest mating you've ever seen, the gene pool is really small, will be a waste anyway if you repeat a litter when you already have pups of this mate that can continue the line of this conection, no different thing happen when we talk about inbreedng and linebreedings, that are common in popular breeds and even used for "fix your ownblood line of breeding" but that should be done with a lot of care in CzW, normaly for accentuate characteristics/bloodline wichs disapearing by some dogs/lines, not thinking in "your own bloodline" only.
Sometimes you will find dogs that are not nice at all, because of the line, because of the threatment or even because of both, but these dogs could be used in a very interesting way for the breeding if the breed comission use the correct conections, even if this dog isnt exactly what the standard say, if he have an interesting line if worked properly can, futurely, improve the breed.
Of course would be nice you count with the HELP of these people, but the decision should be up to a breed comission formed by breeders and the most experienced people possible in your country, and here im not talking about "experience = years of breding" but "experience = Knowledge and etic to breed right".
I mean it because select a breed is not only know genetic and so, but know whats happening, be attent to everything new, separe gossips of the truth, stay informed and in touch with others breeders, unfortunately this kind f interst you will not find by other people than breeders, as its not only a one more study, but almost a "way of live".
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