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Old 23-02-2010, 15:00   #21
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As spaying/neutering can have very negative side effects I find this point of view very strange. It means you amputate healthy organs instead of looking for responsible owners.

Ina
There are health arguments on both sides of the issue but even the most responsible owner can still have accidents or unforseen events. IMO it is better in the log run to take percuations.

Many pets were not spayed or neutered in the Cayman Islands and because of this they had a stray dog population explosion (that's an understatement) after hurricane Ivan went though the island. I'm sure a year (or two) form now we'll see a similar situation in Haiti.
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Old 23-02-2010, 15:20   #22
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There are health arguments on both sides of the issue but even the most responsible owner can still have accidents or unforseen events. IMO it is better in the log run to take percuations.

Many pets were not spayed or neutered in the Cayman Islands and because of this they had a stray dog population explosion (that's an understatement) after hurricane Ivan went though the island. I'm sure a year (or two) form now we'll see a similar situation in Haiti.
So if you don't want to breed it is better and beside that in some cases it is easier

In my case it is easier. I do not want to breed with my CWS or Saarloos and I am absolute against crossbreeding so I neutered them so there can be no accidental crossbreed. By both I let the vet take everything out.
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Old 23-02-2010, 15:33   #23
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I am watching at spayed/neutered animals as a vet since more than two decades and did and do those surgeries myself. There are good reasons for this surgery and also very good reasons against which have to be seen at in every individual case because once you have the surgery done there is no way of making it undone.
In the German animal protection law the amputation of bodyparts without medical reason is strictly forbidden, to do it just because a hurricane may come one day is surely no medical reason. That there is no way to controle a freeranging cat is seen as a reason and as we have lots of cats that are allowed to live a normal cat-life involving leaving the house without the owner is seen as enough reason to castrate it, additional to the health problem of persisting heat in female not spayed cats. As we have almost no free running (not within the reach of the owner) dogs and no health problem in dogs that aren´t mating it is a difficult question in our country. I think to ask this questions is right. That some day some bodypart may get ill is no medical reason as long as there is no genetic mutation. Though these surgeries are done I do believe that you have to decide on every case looking at every point involved. I find it highly questionable from an ethical point of view to spay/neuter in general in a country where it is not usual that the dogs run free without their owner and therefor it is very easy to prevent unwished litters. It of course is different in countries where there a big amounts of stray dogs but in most parts of the US it is not even allowed to let your dog run of leash, and also in the UK straying dogs are not the normal way dogs are kept. That there has been a hurricane in the Caymans can´t be a reason to spay dogs in Maine, USA or Berlin, Germany.
That you have male and female dogs together that shouldn´t breed which each other and you can´t seperate them properly may be a reason.

Again, there are good reasons for castration but to do it simply on every individual that is not meant to go into breeding (from a strictly human point of view also) for me is unethical.

Ina

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Old 23-02-2010, 23:10   #24
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Scientific article on the pros and cons of spaying and castrating dogs and cats I got from another pet forum :

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=...s-of-Neutering

As for my own opinion, I have seen far too many irresponsible people to have your point of view, Ina. I may be disillusioned, but I feel that with as many "accidents" I've seen, and with as many behavioral problems that neutering could help fix as I've seen, I definitely feel that any dog that isn't working or showing and going to be bred in the future should be fixed. With such a pet overpopulation, and with all the problems with people irresponsibly breeding mixed dogs, I just wouldn't feel comfortable selling a dog without either a co-ownership clause or a spay/neuter clause in the contract. As the breeder, it's your responsibility if the person you sell a puppy to has an "Oops" litter. I guess I just don't have as much faith in humanity as you do!
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Old 24-02-2010, 08:18   #25
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As we work as behaviorists as a main job and there has been a lot of communication and research done here in the last years I can tell you that neutering hasn´t got the big behavioural effects as it is meant to have. It only has effects on cases that are only caused by sexual hormons,which are not very many and can be checked in advance by medical castration. before neutering.
And it also can have very negativ behavioural effects!

I think we simply have a very different point of view on treatment of problems in Europe and the USA. We also don´t declaw cats because they could scratch or destroy for example. The use of drugs for behavioral treatment is also of a much lower amount.

If the argument is unwished offspring there is the way of sterilisation which has the same effect but doesn´t change the hormonal status.
I also work for a very big animal shelter and can tell you that we only see very few cases of unwished puppies of German owners. Most litters are of rescued dogs out of countries with stray dogs, where of course like I wrote before neutering is the best way to go (and would be legal in Germany).
I talked of familiy pets in "normal" countries where dogs live with their family and don´t run free, especially not being in heat.
Do you really think it is not possible to find as many responsible people in the USA as in Germany? Do you really think free ranging dogs are such a big problem in cities like New York which is said to have a very high amount of dogs? I think in those cases the real problem is the clean carpet and furniture and the unwillingness of the owner to do some basic dog training. And that is a point of view I find irresponsible.
And even if people in the US are so different it doesn´t mean than that your point of view fits on all other countries.

Ina

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Old 24-02-2010, 10:29   #26
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for both there are thinks to say of course. because neutering can have good and bad sites.
I think every situation is different. If I had one breed and all healthy I must be honest to say that I wouldn't let them be neutered.

But in my case if you're dogs run together,different breeds etc I made the choice of neutering two breeds.
And because there are already so-many pets I can understand that a breeder wants that a litter will be neutered too on the right age.

Like you both say it got every thing to do with responsible or irresponsible people and they are in every country.

But I still have a question for Ina. In my case I come to you're vet and ask as a responsible dog owner with my reason why, to let them neutered,what will he/she do then? Let them intact so they have to spend there lives in a kennel or help them so they can be free?
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Old 24-02-2010, 10:41   #27
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Hi Ina, this got a bit off-topic but very interesting, as I considered spaying my bitch if she would not be used for breeding. This is of course not relevan now, but I would like to know if you consider for example false pregnancies as a good reason to spay a bitch. It seems to me, from the behavioral point of view, to be quite distressing to the bitch to go through it every heat, but maybe I am wrong. I don't mean the severe cases, where the bitch starts producing milk, but just a mild one, where she starts being really ravenous and doesn't enjoy walks and generally behaves as if she was pregnant.
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Old 24-02-2010, 11:32   #28
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But I still have a question for Ina. In my case I come to you're vet and ask as a responsible dog owner with my reason why, to let them neutered,what will he/she do then? Let them intact so they have to spend there lives in a kennel or help them so they can be free?
I can tell you what I do, I ask the owner for his reason for neutering, if it is a medical reason I neuter. I also tell him the funnily often not seen fact that a bitch normally gets in heat two times a year (most CSW only once) for around three weeks and that there is only a dangerous period of about 4-5 days. I tell him all positiv effects and all negativ effects if he insists on neutering I neuter, though there have been cases where I have refused to neuter for example a single familiy dog with massiv overweight. Very many owners decide to take the heat after thinking it over because they didn´t know all aspects before.
I don´t neuter before the first heat and don´t like it in males before they are through puberty. There has been one research involving 1000 owners in Germany with the clear result that this is no good thing to do especially from behavioral aspects or only in very, very few cases.
In males we get very few owners asking for it without any reason, if they have a behavioral reason and a case where you can´t be sure the behavior inproves after castration I give them the advise to test a hormonal castration before. It is very unpleasent for all sides if the problem still occures or gets worse after castration.

Coming back to groups without medical problems or behavioral problems: Though it is seen as no good solution to sterilise females there is the point of view to sterilise males. You don´t have any side effects, the social structure doesn´t change. It is also seen as the better solution for male stray dogs because nowadays you know that castration of male strays doesn´t help the population, the can´t keep their social position in the population and new uncastrated strays come in. So it is better to sterilize males to decrease populations.
For dogs in living in homes you should look at the individual dog, if it is really painfull for him to have so many females in heat around him it might be better to castrate.

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Old 24-02-2010, 12:09   #29
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Hi Ina, this got a bit off-topic but very interesting, as I considered spaying my bitch if she would not be used for breeding. This is of course not relevan now, but I would like to know if you consider for example false pregnancies as a good reason to spay a bitch. It seems to me, from the behavioral point of view, to be quite distressing to the bitch to go through it every heat, but maybe I am wrong. I don't mean the severe cases, where the bitch starts producing milk, but just a mild one, where she starts being really ravenous and doesn't enjoy walks and generally behaves as if she was pregnant.
False pregnancy is a medical reason to spay. Behaviour like the one you describe already is a not mild case but might be discussed as a reason.

The results of the study:
Reasons to castrate a bitch:
  • acute ghynological problems, Diabetes mellitus etc.
  • returning, strong false pregnancies with strong suffering of the bitch
  • extreme aggressiv behaviour during heat and false pregnancy
  • bitches that smell attractive for males during the whole year and suffer.
not so good reasons:

  • the wish of changing of aggressiv behaviour that is not only during heat or false pregnancy. In all other cases it is very likely the aggression-problem increases, it is a contraindikation'!

  • if you want the bitch to get more quiet or active, the result is not to be foreseen. It can be the opposite of the wished behaviour.

  • prophylactive against mammaltumors: The number of mammaltumors doesn´t justify the health risk of castration. A relevant decrease in cases is only seen in castrations before the first heat, which includes to much risks in itself. (only around 0,2 - 1,8% of all bitches will get a mammatumor in her life and the main part will be benigne)

  • the owner doesn´t want the troubles of heat (exception the bitch lives together with uncastrated males), this would be illegal in Germany.

  • The castration is seen to be the only way of unwished pregnancy (exception a "intact" male in the household; in this case it should be thought about castration of the male)
health changes in bitches caused by castration:

different structure of fur: 49 %
increase in weight: 44 %
increased appetite: 40 %
bladder incontinence: 28 % (differences in breeds)
changes in scelettal growth: 4%


in males:
increase of weight: 47 %
increase of appetite: 46 %
disappearing of preputial inflammation: 45 %
changes in fur-quality: 32 %
bladder incontinence: 9 %
changes in scelettal growth: 3%




castrated bitches have a higher risk of :
adipositas (2x)
Heart tumors (8x)

acute fatal Pancreatitis (8x)
bladder incontinence (8x)
Haemangioma
thyreoideal cancer
Hyperthyreosis (I think this is a mistake in my literature it should be Hypothyreosis)
Ulcera of kidney an bladder

chronical Keratitis
decrease of muscle and soft tissue
risk of death during surgery



in males:

Adipositas (2x)
prostata cancer
ulcera of kidney or bladder
Diabetes mell.
Hyperthyreosis
death during surgery


There are also great benefits on the other side but these normally are well known.
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Old 24-02-2010, 13:18   #30
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Thanks for answers Ina, it is good to know about these things.
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Old 24-02-2010, 13:24   #31
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I think we simply have a very different point of view on treatment of problems in Western Europe and the USA.
Ina, you're definitely right about this, it's not the first time I've seen the cultural differences (nor will it be the last!) Although, I'm definitely against declawing cats, and I rarely approve of behavioral drugs, let alone the way they're tossed about like candy here!

Regarding the medical and behavioral benefits/cons to neutering, this is why I love that article I posted. It breaks down all the different behaviors and medical issues that have been scientifically studied (with references to actual studies) for both intact and fixed animals. It gives statistics that I think are important to see when making decisions about what to do with your dogs. I think it's very fair in the way it presents everything (not taking a side for or against) so I think it's a good read!
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Old 24-02-2010, 13:30   #32
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Sure it is, I simply come to diffent conclusions or better think that there is no general conclusion.
I have looked up if the German study has been translated but it seems it has not. It is a whole paper showing up much more aspects and the author has collected datas from more than 1000 owners and asked every dogsschool for their experiences. This combined with the medical point of view gives a more objective view to many aspects.
Especially when you look at castration in very early age you will find a 100% pro if you ask a surgeon, the same in your study as far as I remember, you will come to nearly 100% contra if you ask German dogschools and most owners. It´s almost only pro is the much easier and quicker surgery and the study showed that the very often denied cons clearly exist.

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Old 24-02-2010, 14:07   #33
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Thanks Ina, very interesting results !
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Old 24-02-2010, 14:10   #34
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The results in the German study concerning behaviour differ in some aspects:



Behavioural Changes in bitches after castration::

higher consistency: 51 %
more active behaviour: 22 %
lethargic behaviour: 15 %
less aggression against other bitches: 12 %
increased aggression against other bitches: 9 %
increased aggression against other dogs in general: 11 %

The higher consistnency seen in 51% of spayed bitches has its origin in the fact that the hormonel caused cyclus fluctuations don´t exist any longer. These cyclic fluctuaions are also seen in women.This fact alone shouldn´t be a reason to spay a bitch.
In bitches that underwent early spaying (before the first heat) there is also a high risk of increased fear behaviour. This can show up in separation anxiety or increased flight tendency.
Bitches that have underwent castration during or shortly after heat show a higher amount of Behavioural changings like aggression or depression.

Behavioural changes in males:
higher consistency: 63 %
increased obidience: 34 %
decreased aggression against other males: 34 %
mounting by other males: 19 %
lethargic behaviour: 13 %
uneasiness (uncertanty) with other dogs: 7 %
decreased aggression against family members: 7 %
decreased aggression agains strangers: 2 %



The improvement in obedience may result partly that situations when the male hasen´t been obidient because of the smell of a bitch will decrease...
In males the changement in aggressiv behaviour seems to be highly dependent of age: Animals that have been castrated in an age of under 6 month and also in an age between 6 - 12 month show are more likely to show aggressiv behaviour agains other dogs in general and show less consistency in behaviour.

Aggressiv Behaviour of both sexes against other dogs and also humans often occurs the first time after castration...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The last conclusions will differ from the USA because it is quite unusual to castrate males in our country, in most cases it is done because there have already been problems, mostly of aggression. If you look at this fact the changes in aggressiv behaviour are very low.
What has been shown in this study is that castration of males can cause aggression because of higher anxiety in social contacts.

All translated parts a out of the "Bielefelder Studie" by Gabriele Niepel
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Old 24-02-2010, 14:26   #35
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Thanks for you're answer Ina.
I know know that you look good at the individual cases and that's good.
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Old 24-02-2010, 17:47   #36
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To tell the truth, different view in different countries because of different situations.
Here we have a tons of mutts wandering in the street, getting crushed by cars, poisoned or dying from diseases, often these mutts are responsible for some different kinds of zoonosis.
Most part of our people with medium/low (also high sometime) class are completly ignorant, wich loves to make non planned litters matting his own dog with the neighbor ones because they look like a breed dog, the puppies born, they sold for a low price or change for eletronical equipments, and if they dont find homes for all pups the remains go to street, increasing the number of mutts.
Also we have here a nice problem with Piometra, most of the non neuthered females will have such problem sooner or latter, mostly of the owners wich have non-neuthered dogs does not know about it and commonly only note the piometra when its too late, it when people didn't tried before some kind of "natural medicine", "pray" or something more vague for try to cure the dog.
Of course we know the problems that comes with the castration, principaly the early one, but in the campaign its simply "forgoten" for God sake , as if we start to bring fair informations about neuthering a dog with the positive and negative sides, everyone will only look at the negative side for dont neuther the dog and continue to bring more dogs lost in this world, after make his female suffer and die because of piometra wich the irresponsible owner was unable to see when is irresponsible enough to dont search for a vet (becuse his grandmother knows how to cure it).
So here you have everyone pro castration, dogschools, vets and owners, particulary I neuther all my dogs when they will not be used for breeding after they reach 18 months, i'm also completly pro the castration of elder females, when they will not be used on breeding anymore as a way to avoid problems (hem.. principaly piometra, I swear i'm not traumatized with this disease but is that here its very common )
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Old 24-02-2010, 18:05   #37
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To tell the truth, different view in different countries because of different situations.
)
That is exactly the point, you can´t give general rules for the whole world but have to look at situations.
Of course we see Pyometras but not very often and they are normally family pets will see a vet and get surgery and treatment, no matter what costs.

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Old 25-02-2010, 15:45   #38
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Different countries, different opinions and also different advertisement!
In Holland animal shelters, animal protect organisations and vets make advertisement for sterilization and castration with slogans like this:
“Protect your female against pyometra and mama gland tumors by sterilisation!”

(For males they use only castration for females two methods are used: ovario-hysterectomie (OVH – everything is deleted) and ovari-ectomie (OVE - the uterus is not deleted)
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Old 26-02-2010, 00:10   #39
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hi Marcy, it will happen and there is nothing you can do will stop it, money is the goal, my first litter in uk all new owners signed contract that they would never cross breed there CWS with any other breed of dog, they did and it would cost me fortune to take them all to court to get my dogs back as it is classed as civil mater, as for the Tamaskan, this is not a breed of dog, it is not recognised in any country or by any kennel club, the person who is reasponsable for this so called bred is from uk, and used to breed belgium shepherds, i refused to sell this person CWS many years ago in 2003, the dogs they call tamaskans are nothing but a mix of different breeds, just like the inuits, people who breed these dogs now say they have records of breedings and that they will become recognised breed with kennel club, so anyone reading this mail in uk who has a Tamaskan and has been told by the breeder it will be recognised by the k.c. please phone registration department and ask for Caroline Hallett, she will confirm they are not up for recognition, they have been breeding these dogs for years and still have not produced a type, so they are doing something very wrong, Bluestag took some of the cross bred dogs to finland and she lived there, then some dogs came back to the uk, and people where told they now had wolf content, but no one knows if they do, with only this persons word to say so, i would take it very lightly what she has said about wolf content, funny she came home to uk when the CWS had got some numbers up, then suddenly the Tamaskan re-appears but now with wolf content,, MONEY,,,,,to make things clear the inuit, british inuit, have been bred in uk for some 15 yrs according to there web sites, they still have no type and still can not become recognised breed, by the way the Utonagon was also by the same kennel Bluestag, when they died a death, then came the Tamaskan, it also died a death but then came back as the new tamaskan but now with wolf content, i have seen these dogs they are not wolfdogs, they do not act or have anything in common with true wolfdogs, they are normal dogs and act like them. but when you put wolfdog or wolf content in any advert people buy them, the web sites on the net now state the Tamaskans have wolf content, i wonder who is behind it all and who put the word out,,,,,,, it is all crap lies and deciet to make money from selling dogs. RONNIE WINDER UK.
Mr Winder. I think I would have remembered if I had asked you for a dog. At no time was I buying a dog from you. I do however remember you trying to get me to take a Malamute female from you though as the Malamute people had closed the doors on you and wouldnt let you use any of their stud dogs and quite rightly so. You speak of me breeding for the money!! you know nothing of me whatsoever ,but by your own admission you told me you live off your dogs. In other words you breed dogs for money and have no other income. I breed dogs because I love them and it is a hobby I have had for over 35 years. How many Champions have you bred Mr Winder?? I have bred Champions in 4 out of the 5 continents. Also if you would care to read our website correctly there is nowhere that we state that we will be recognised by any Kennel Club. Please get your facts right. What you are saying above is total b/s. You know nothing. You think you know why I came back to UK from Finland ..lol... because the cwd numbers were up... what a fool you are! IF I had wanted to purchase a cwd I would have done dont you think. The very fact that I dont have one is because I dont want one.

(to the people out there with the cwd this is not a slant on your breed, I think they are very lovely and have met many of them over the years) I also hope that you all close ranks and prohibit the so called aatu Tamaskan people from breeding from any of your boys. For those of you that dont know me check me out at www.blustag-arcticbreeds.co.uk Our Tamaskan do NOT have wolf content regardless of the rumours flying around. ALL of them have been dna profiled that have ever been bred from and will continue that way. Anything you want to know about the Tamaskan breed can be found at www.tamaskan-dog.com These rumours were all started by certain people that were refused puppies by our breeders. For the record there are a lot of people in Europe coming to us for our breed that have both the Saarloose and the Cwd and are very happy with them. Please ignore all the negativity in Mr Winder's post. These people are purely jealous of where we are now at.

OH by the way Mr Winder it is Blustag and NOT Bluestag...
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Old 26-02-2010, 09:28   #40
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Originally Posted by solowolf View Post
hi Marcy, it will happen and there is nothing you can do will stop it, money is the goal, my first litter in uk all new owners signed contract that they would never cross breed there CWS with any other breed of dog, they did and it would cost me fortune to take them all to court to get my dogs back as it is classed as civil mater, as for the Tamaskan, this is not a breed of dog, it is not recognised in any country or by any kennel club, the person who is reasponsable for this so called bred is from uk, and used to breed belgium shepherds, i refused to sell this person CWS many years ago in 2003, the dogs they call tamaskans are nothing but a mix of different breeds, just like the inuits, people who breed these dogs now say they have records of breedings and that they will become recognised breed with kennel club, so anyone reading this mail in uk who has a Tamaskan and has been told by the breeder it will be recognised by the k.c. please phone registration department and ask for Caroline Hallett, she will confirm they are not up for recognition, they have been breeding these dogs for years and still have not produced a type, so they are doing something very wrong, Bluestag took some of the cross bred dogs to finland and she lived there, then some dogs came back to the uk, and people where told they now had wolf content, but no one knows if they do, with only this persons word to say so, i would take it very lightly what she has said about wolf content, funny she came home to uk when the CWS had got some numbers up, then suddenly the Tamaskan re-appears but now with wolf content,, MONEY,,,,,to make things clear the inuit, british inuit, have been bred in uk for some 15 yrs according to there web sites, they still have no type and still can not become recognised breed, by the way the Utonagon was also by the same kennel Bluestag, when they died a death, then came the Tamaskan, it also died a death but then came back as the new tamaskan but now with wolf content, i have seen these dogs they are not wolfdogs, they do not act or have anything in common with true wolfdogs, they are normal dogs and act like them. but when you put wolfdog or wolf content in any advert people buy them, the web sites on the net now state the Tamaskans have wolf content, i wonder who is behind it all and who put the word out,,,,,,, it is all crap lies and deciet to make money from selling dogs. RONNIE WINDER UK.
MR WINDER I think I would remember if I had asked you for a dog. I certainly havnt at anytime asked you for a dog. I do remember though you trying to get me to take one of your malamute females off you due to the fact that the malamute breeders closed ranks on their stud dogs and wouldnt let you use any of them, and quite rightly so. How dare you insinuate that I breed for the money. By your own admission you told me yourself that you breed for the money and have no other income other than your puppy sales. I breed for the love of dogs and as a hobby. How many Champions have you bred Mr Winder? I have bred and placed champions in 4 out of 5 continents! My breeding is thought out very carefully. For those of you that dont know me please check me out at www.blustag-arcticbreeds.co.uk Oh and Mr Winder it is Blustag and NOT Bluestag. It is Belgian Shepherds and NOT Belgium Also we are not advertising the fact that we have approached the KC to get our breed recognised. Nowhere on our site www.tamaskan-dog.com is this mentioned. Please get your facts right. You do not know me at all and your insinuations are insulting to say the least. Also your comments about why I returned from Finland to UK is total b/s. I came back due to the increase in UK of cwd... what a load of rubbish. If I had wanted a cwd I would have bought one. The reason I dont have one is because I dont want one... simple.

This is no disrespect to the cwd owners out there. I love the breed and have met many throughout US and Europe. For the record there are now several people who have the cwd and the saarloose buying Tamaskan for whatever their reasons. We also have more people being screened as I write this post. This is a lovely breed and easy to manage which is why people like them. Please ignore all the negativity going on written by people who have axes to grind such as Mr Winder. Also what is common between the Alba breeder and the US breeders Conchur and Takari is that these people have all along with others been refused Tamaskan puppies for genuine reasons.

Note to Mr Winder. I suggest that you direct your energies elsewhere to where they would be more useful such as screening your puppy purchasers thoroughly instead of printing such garbage as above!
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