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Old 07-02-2010, 17:49   #21
Rona
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Seeing won't work. Especially if it is a grown up wolfdog. They look just onderful then, nothing worse than retriever
Agree! Especially that they tend to switch on their demo version when visitors come in to see the worse of the breed.
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And people do not believe, this amazing dog used to make owners just sit and cry Maybe someone should start a topic "Real stories. My CSV made my cry by doing..."
There was as similar topic on the Polish forum but people stopped adding their CSVs 'crimes', when some others started commenting how nice and gentle wolfdogs they had.
But:
I read the topic after a couple of years and realised that some of the greatest wolfdog troublemakers, that in their 'teenage' period literally walked on the walls, grew up to be lovely, predictable and well-trained animals and some of the "perfect pups" that destroyed nothing were later abandoned by their owners for some unknown reasons...

I suppose some CSV pups are more ingenuous/difficult than others, but in principle, the first year or two with a CSv is not easy time for the owner. The general rule however is, that the more time, energy and care the owner offers the pup during this time, the easier it is to handle the adult wolfdog.
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Old 07-02-2010, 22:44   #22
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There was as similar topic on the Polish forum but people stopped adding their CSVs 'crimes', when some others started commenting how nice and gentle wolfdogs they had.
But:
I read the topic after a couple of years and realised that some of the greatest wolfdog troublemakers, that in their 'teenage' period literally walked on the walls, grew up to be lovely, predictable and well-trained animals and some of the "perfect pups" that destroyed nothing were later abandoned by their owners for some unknown reasons...
I know... it is in Italian, but this Thread is amazing and very very useful for us to let new owners "know"... you can see the photos and make your own conlusions.
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Old 07-02-2010, 23:18   #23
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This is very off topic but we had one here to >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...ht=Destruction

But I think it is locked away in the forum basement even if you post I do not think it will show on the 10 top list...

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 11-08-2010, 23:41   #24
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Old thread, but is this pup still in CA? I live there and I'd love a chance to meet one. Vicky actually sparked my interest in the breed recently and recommended me to the forums. It's going to be a long time till I'll be able to actually get one but spending some time with one would be great

I'd also like to say there is a ton of great information here and I've been reading the board constantly as well as all of the articles I've found here over the last week or two.
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Old 16-08-2010, 13:50   #25
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Sorry, no - this puppy has found another happy new home in another state.
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Old 16-08-2010, 16:41   #26
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That is pretty much definitely the best for the pup in this situation. I just can't believe someone would be so pushy to have to bring a dog in immediately and then a few months later just try to get rid of it as quickly as possible
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Old 16-08-2010, 17:05   #27
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That is pretty much definitely the best for the pup in this situation. I just can't believe someone would be so pushy to have to bring a dog in immediately and then a few months later just try to get rid of it as quickly as possible
Sadly, out of the 50-60 dogs that have been imported to the US and Canada, I know of 5 of these stories. 4 of them had happy outcomes...the other, did not, I think. Several owners have had real struggles, but managed to ride out the "storm" of adolescence and have reached the peaceful side of maturity. As a breeder here, I get so many emails from people who are totally inappropriate or not in the right place of life to take on a big committment...people in the US have such a different idea of dog ownership - almost delusional sometimes - about their capabilities, or what a dog like ours actually needs in terms of mental stimulation, exercise, socialization, etc. Later, I see that they have imported - and I immediately try to make contact so they have support. Young people often find it totally acceptable to turn their dog into rescue or the pound, others blame all the problems on the dog (rather than their human abilities) and ponder whether their dog is genetically "dangerous" - and ask my opinion if they should euthanize. It's really scary for me...especially when they are across the US and far from driving distance...but I always try to offer assistance if I can.
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Old 16-08-2010, 17:42   #28
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Yeah, I'd imagine as being a breeder you probably see the worst of it. After seeing so many terrible breeders though this community is a sight for sore eyes in that aspect. I don't think I'll ever be able to understand people who think that just dumping their dog at the shelter or putting it down because they are difficult as a puppy is acceptable. I actually had a good discussion with Vicky recently regarding the difference in the average quality of breeders between the US and Europe as well as the level of knowledge the average dog owner has and just how much that seems to differ.

That's a pretty high rate of dogs needing rehoming I hoped it would be smaller, that maybe since it's such a new breed especially here in the US that the people importing them would be more responsible. I definitely agree though that so many people in the US who have dogs really just don't understand how much responsibility it is. I live in a college town right near the campus and on my block and the next block there are at least 5 dogs who are kept primarily outdoors, never exercised, and constantly bark and whine. It's really depressing. The average college student who just wants a dog because they grew up with one or whatever really has no idea what it means to really care for one (and I say this as a college student graduating in 3 months who spends pretty much every second of his free time with his dogs ). This is a rant that I could go on about for way too long, but the way so many people handle having dogs in the US is really sad.
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Old 16-08-2010, 18:33   #29
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Rivals, czech wolfdogs are difficult dogs.

Christian

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Old 16-08-2010, 18:34   #30
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Old 16-08-2010, 18:35   #31
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Rivals, czech wolfdogs are difficult dogs. For it is the pitty that the breeders who send the pups over the atlantic does not sort out the right owners... It is not during puppy hood but the first 4-5 years till they settle down. If the breeders would be honest they would not send csw to the US. Only to experienced people. And if you ask the right questions and lets show you pictures, videos you will notice fast, if someone will be able to care for a csw. These are wolfdogs! The most are 7-9 generation after wolf mixed with highly working german shepard. What do you think will come out?

Christian
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Old 16-08-2010, 19:04   #32
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That's very true. I'm sure a lot of people rush into getting one without understanding that at all, very much like so many people I've seen here with getting Huskies. Sadly, it's not that surprising to see people here getting into a breed which they don't understand and it's not them but the dog who suffers in that situation. But I also agree that some breeders should be more strict with who they ship to (I obviously can't speak for specifically CzW breeders since I have no direct experience just what I've read here, but more in general).

Also I hope I'm not coming across like I have a full understanding and a ton of knowledge of this breed (and I apologize if I am). I am very new to it and have a lot to learn about them still

Last edited by rivals; 16-08-2010 at 21:33. Reason: Misunderstanding
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Old 16-08-2010, 21:48   #33
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I don't know if it's so much that they are difficult - but they have very unique needs. All breeds do. LOL - I spent all day in the emergency room of our local hospital yesterday with a good friend after his hands got torn to shreds when he broke up a dog fight - a 6 month old puppy he owned had a toy, and an older dog he is fostering for a rescue became jealous - they got in a fierce fight - which resulted in many deep bite wounds on my friend and the puppy. A wolfdog? or a pitbull? or a german shepherd? no...2 Golden Retrievers. My dogs would never dream about that kind of jealousy over toys, food, or anything - after training, of course. The goldens are quite needy in terms of attention - which frequently leads to jealousy and seperation anxiety, and dogs that are constantly in your facew - a trait which can also make them great pets and good therapy dogs. To me, that is a difficult trait...I like more independent acting dogs that don't constantly crave affection. For our breed, the energy and bold/stubborn/intelligent personalities of our dogs can make them super fun to work with - but a nightmare for the wrong household. That's exactly what I mean though...to most Americans, a dog is a dog...little thought is given to unique needs of a breed or individual. Once problems start...forget it...committment is a rare creature here. The most difficult age, I have found, is between 6/7 months and 18/24 months...my 3 older dogs became quite mellow after that, Bongo seems to be following the same pattern - and I have heard similar accounts from other owners and breeders. Of the cases where dogs were given up here - one was a lady from the Czech Rep. - she had met the breed many times, but found her dog too much to care for when she had a baby. Two of the cases were people who wanted a GSD in a wolf coat - they couldn't get the working results/drive they wanted using GSD repetitive training. Another was just incompatible - I think the guy had mental illness...and used cruel physical punishment. The last case I'm not sure about - they had several small children and were in the military (lots of moving, maybe to a place that didn't allow dogs). They had a bold male puppy. 4 of those dogs are doing beautifully in their new homes - perfect, beloved pets who will be assets to breeding programs one day.

I really, really wish European breeders would shoot our breed club a quick email when they are approached by an American trying to import a pup. Usually we have had some contact with the person - or can even meet the person to help the European breeder have a better evaluation. We don't see it as breeder rivalry - we really want more people to import to the US - especially interesting males.

Rival, send me your contact info in a private message - I will forward it to some owners your way who might be willing to meet with you.

Marcy
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Old 17-08-2010, 05:21   #34
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Originally Posted by GalomyOak View Post
I really, really wish European breeders would shoot our breed club a quick email when they are approached by an American trying to import a pup. Usually we have had some contact with the person - or can even meet the person to help the European breeder have a better evaluation. We don't see it as breeder rivalry - we really want more people to import to the US - especially interesting males.
Marcy

I agree wholeheartedly.

Besides that, if anybody who brought from a breeder was thinking to put the dog down or rehome it, I would hope that the breeder cared to reclaim the dog to find another suitable home for it.

If CSVs ever reach the level of backyard breeding and mill breeding that GSDs and other 'popular' pets are unfortunately prone to, it'll be a very sad day indeed. I only hope that breeders will invest in a good, legally binding contract and intend to uphold it through all circumstances. We know of breeders who have punitively sued successfully to get back their puppies who have been turned into shelters without their knowledge, rehomed, or bred without permission.

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Old 17-08-2010, 20:21   #35
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Several owners have had real struggles, but managed to ride out the "storm" of adolescence and have reached the peaceful side of maturity.
Hence her nick name "Hurricane Luna".

I don't think I've ever had a dog that's had this much energy but around 7 months old she started to calm down, she's almost 8 months now.

The only really high energy time now is when she and Pongo are out together. Then it's a category 5 hurricane. He still has a lot of energy but hopefully he'll start to calm down in the next few months, I think he just turned 6 months a few weeks ago. (Is his breeder here? Was his birthday Feb 3 or March 2?).

But - I was proactive and to keep it out of the hands of squatters, I did register vlcakrescue.com and vlcakrescue.org (both now point to the CsVCA website).

As for EU breeders contacting people in the USA, while it is a great idea I'm sure there are some breeders who don't want to bother with that with the fear of losing a sale and if the prospective owner is rejected by one breeder, they can just go to another and another until they get what they want.

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Old 12-09-2010, 19:48   #36
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For European breeders, responsible ones, anyway, PLEASE do research on suitable homes before exporting a dog to the US. Internationally, contracts are near un-reinforceable.

At least if both parties are in the same country, contracts have been successfully upheld in court... it won't be the same if the two parties are from different countries.

For the past couple of dogs I have had, there are existing stipulations in their contracts barring the rehoming of a dog unless it is back with the breeder, or immediate family per breeder consent... I would hope that ANY breeder who brings life into the world would feel personally responsible to find another home for the dog should the primary home be found to be unsuitable.

I'm happy that another home has been found for this dog!
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Old 13-09-2010, 03:44   #37
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European breeders are not like American breeders at all, I have noticed. No guarantees, replacements or "please send back if you can keep it" clauses. I have yet to find a breeder overseas with a contract.
It's just a different mentality - I think buyers here do not do the research needed and do not follow through with the work required.
I do not think vlcaks will be a puppy mill sort of breed just because of their "needs" the fact that they usually don't breed over and over in a year's time and though they are gorgeous, once the public realizes what is entailed in keeping a vlcak, their will likely be little demand.
As an aside, there is a new pup in CA - a littermate to Pollux (AKA Pongo)... "Partha"...
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Old 13-09-2010, 03:56   #38
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European breeders are not like American breeders at all, I have noticed. No guarantees, replacements or "please send back if you can keep it" clauses. I have yet to find a breeder overseas with a contract.
It's just a different mentality - I think buyers here do not do the research needed and do not follow through with the work required.
I do not think vlcaks will be a puppy mill sort of breed just because of their "needs" the fact that they usually don't breed over and over in a year's time and though they are gorgeous, once the public realizes what is entailed in keeping a vlcak, their will likely be little demand.
As an aside, there is a new pup in CA - a littermate to Pollux (AKA Pongo)... "Partha"...
Well, Catahoulas have very demanding needs too.. And rescues I know of and work with have seen entire litters put down and many adults currently needs homes..

So I wouldn't put I past people to exploit just about anything...

Perhaps not mill, but certainly backyard breeders of all sorts, I can see..as is the case in countries they are already popular in.
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Old 13-09-2010, 07:22   #39
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. No guarantees, replacements or "please send back if you can keep it" clauses. I have yet to find a breeder overseas with a contract.
Sorry but this is simply not true. It depends on the country and the breeder, I am sure that there are also US breeders without contract.
In our contracts it is clearly stated that the dog has to be offered to us if it can´t be kept any longer and that we will find another owner if we can´t take it back ourself. In the German contracts we did also put fines of several thousand Euros on giving the dog away without announcing to us and to breed it outside the FCI.
As for the puppy from our kennel we did send to the US, I think we didn´t really send cotracts back and fro but we had a good contact to the former owner for a very long period via mail and phone, she was an experienced owner with already another wolfdog who kept contact and gives us updates every now and then. As I have no possiblity tho upheld any contract in court I didn´t bother too much but I wouldn´t sell a puppy overseas not knowing the person since quite a time and making clear that we will take any puppy back if necessary.
And I know that almost all German breeder do the same.

As for guarantees, this is a living creature what guarantees should be given apart from the health status at the moment of selling, wormtreatment, vaccination and chip? You can´t do more than choose the best parents you can find.

Ina

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Old 13-09-2010, 07:37   #40
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As for guarantees, this is a living creature what guarantees should be given apart from the health status at the moment of selling, wormtreatment, vaccination and chip? You can´t do more than choose the best parents you can find.

Ina
What I am familiar with in the US:

For example, one of our dogs developed 2 luxating patellae around 7 months old. Her breeder offered another dog, or refund her cost to help her surgery. (We picked the second... we didn't need another dog at the time).

Especially for when a dog was brought with intention of showing or breeding, say that the dog develops debilitating hip dysplasia, I know of a few breeders who will give another show-quality dog when the owner is ready in addition to the disabled dog.


That is what I know of personally here.
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