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Health and nutrition How to feed a Wolfdog, information about dog food, how to vaccinate and what to do if the dog gets ill....

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Old 03-02-2010, 04:45   #1
GalomyOak
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Default HD and bone problems

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Originally Posted by solowolf View Post
i get all my dogs tested at 14-16 mths aand i have looked into hips for a long time, now my wolfdogs are very active, and i mean very, they live in large pens and they get out into a field every day, the run about and play, so if my friends dog lives in the house and goes for a walk every day and get to run in a small garden, you will agree that my dogs will get a lot more running about, so in your oppinion would this have any affect on a hip score? i have had 2 dogs hip scored 3 times at different ages to compair results with age and both dogs lived in different types of homes one was pet one was working and very active, both dogs where from same parents and had very similar results at first test, at 3rd test there was a significant difference in the results, my dogs are active 24.7 so they get done at 14mths some 16mths, inherited hd we can test for and do our best to improve in breeding stock, but lots of other factors contribute to hd results as well, some bone disorders like HODS disease which is similar to OCD can be caused by in one case i know of by an Akita puppy being fed on Hills Sience plan dog food, if puppies can damage the Patella by going up and down stairs then it can also affect the hip joints, so lots of things can affect the hips before any test is done,with the Czech wolfdogs in last 10 yrs has become an unslought of health problems, every time i visit is new topic for something else, it becomes more like an inbred show dogs health case every day,look at the breeds that suffer from people breeding, i love my czech wolfdogs very much but now you know why i have only bred 3 litters in 10 yrs and why i keep my other type of wolfdogs as well.
HD is genetic - but the severity in which it is shown can be influenced by environmental factors, such as diet, exercise, etc. We can see it as genetic by looking at certain breeds (especially some sighthounds, such as Borzoi, Italian Greyhound) who have virtually no HD within the whole breed, and also in populations of dogs where it has been virtually eliminated by selective breeding (such as the Seeing Eye Labrador Retrievers - a closed colony). A dog (Dog A) that develops HD had the genetic predisposition obviously; a dog (Dog B) that does not develop HD may have the predisposition, but it may not show up. But Dog B can still pass on HD in genetics...this is why I like PennHip so much - it does an actual measurement on a body part (ligament) and gives a numerical measurement with breed specific probabilities attached - not just a look to see if HD is actually present (but it does that too). Like all genetic diseases, it is likely you will see affected dogs, and non-affected dogs within the same litter when affected dogs are bred. The point is to pick the puppies for breeding who don't have those genes - or, if they must be used in a very rare case, to match the affected dog with a very healthy match.

Of course there are other diseases that can affect structure too. Most of these are rare/sporadic - but should definitely be noted and considered. HODS disease (since you mentioned it) isn't generally thought to be genetic - but probably caused by a bacteria (since fever usually presents with the initial onset), diet or possible vitamin deficiency. Could this present problems similar to HD? Maybe. Is there a way to know for sure if HODS caused the problem or if it is genetic? Probably not at this point in time, I would guess. I have very, very serious doubts that I would take the risk in breeding such a dog with any major structural disease, genetic or not - it would have to be an exceptional situation to account for the risk involved in breeding a dog with disease of unknown origin.

I can only think of some very rare cases where waiting to breed a dog until 24-36 months would be a bad thing (especially a male, who are statistically prone to more bone/structure problems) - maybe if a bitch was older and ready for her final covering, and the particular, incredible male was only 12-18 months...but that is all I can really think of. So, why not wait to get the most reliable results at an older age, even if it might only make some small difference in results? I see breeding as a patient, carefully calculated process - not something to be done in haste.

It's hard to say if more diseases are showing up in the breed, or if they are just becoming more public. I think a big problem in this breed/breed community is that people have been afraid to announce their dog's health problems. Now that fear is - maybe - slowly starting to fade (I hope!), so we start to see more problems when people announce them. But I think this conversation is going on in other threads. So I will leave it there.
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Old 03-02-2010, 16:58   #2
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Default Thanks Marcy

I like the Idea of waiting until 36 months for final HD tests and Breeding (I also like the Idea of us beginning to track the changes throughout development)... I want to be hasty about developing the BEST CsVs possible. So, if waiting 36 months is what it takes to pick the best, then that is the fastest way . Not wating, and mass breeding for a decade to create a mob of potentially problematic puppies, while searching for the best out of those, will probably not produce any signifigantly greater number of better dogs, and is cruel to all those who will suffer later in life due to these problems we are attempting to do away with.

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Old 03-02-2010, 17:06   #3
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Default Confused yet?

I just reread my post and I apologize if I have confused anyone.

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Old 21-02-2010, 01:53   #4
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I better keep Fred Lanting away from this thread. He'll write a(nother) book on the subject in here.

While genetics is a factor (and there isn't anything you can do about that "after the fact") there are many ways you can help prevent HD becoming severe. As mentioned, diet is extremely important, especially in a puppy's youth during their development.

But also keeping them in shape is a great way to help prevent HD. Larger dogs (not just in size - but also overweight) have a higher chance of getting HD - keep your dogs fit and in shape!

The big issue is that when a breed becomes popular, unethical breeders start to pop up an then the breed started to get damaged (we see this with today's GSDs). As a technician, I'd have to label the GSD breed (especially "show" lines here in the US) as DBR (Damaged Beyond Repair). Even pet homes now are looking at German lines and importing - some potential adopters even ask us "your puppies won't look like inch worms, will they?".

I really hope this doesn't happen to the CWD breed.
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Old 21-02-2010, 14:28   #5
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I
The big issue is that when a breed becomes popular, unethical breeders start to pop up an then the breed started to get damaged (we see this with today's GSDs). As a technician, I'd have to label the GSD breed (especially "show" lines here in the US) as DBR (Damaged Beyond Repair). Even pet homes now are looking at German lines and importing - some potential adopters even ask us "your puppies won't look like inch worms, will they?".

I really hope this doesn't happen to the CWD breed.
I think Marcy did a great job giving you one of her pups! It seems like everyone here (in the US) involved with CsVs is concerned about the same thing, which is why such an emphasis is being put on actually working the dogs in some fashion as well as all the obvious health testing. Not only is the health testing important, the structure of a well-balanced working dog is vital, too! That's just something you need more than the show ring to test.
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Old 21-02-2010, 15:10   #6
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I think Marcy did a great job giving you one of her pups! It seems like everyone here (in the US) involved with CsVs is concerned about the same thing, which is why such an emphasis is being put on actually working the dogs in some fashion as well as all the obvious health testing. Not only is the health testing important, the structure of a well-balanced working dog is vital, too! That's just something you need more than the show ring to test.
She made a good decision? Shoot, I need to try harder then.

One of our largest grips with the AKC judging style is that it is too common for judges to judge by the wrong end of the leash. Many times they look at the names and the handlers more than the actual dog (most of the time a judge has their mind made up as soon as the dogs walk into the ring). The emphasis is also on looks, not the whole package (temperament, working ability etc..).

We officially gave up showing Kiri (our GSD) on this day:

Kiri does extremely well in the Sieger show ring as well as UKC shows. Her movement is only topped by her daughter (Athena) and structurally she looks like the GSDs we saw before the breed got ruined (WWII style GSD - straight back, big head, intelligence etc...).

At this show, my wife was in the front of the line (she had the lowest armband #). Behind her was a bitch who was scrawny and could barely walk. The entire time her tail was tucked between her legs (mind you - the AKC / GSDCA-WDA standard states "must show confidence").

Behind that female was a male who looked like he was dragging his rear end on the ground when he walked and, as the other female, had his tail tucked between his legs the entire time.

There were 2-3 other dogs in the ring behind those two.

When the judge was doing his final look over he looked to my wife and said loud enough for everyone to hear "You, go to the back of the line". (In a nutshell he was saying "I want everyone to know I think your dog is the worst one here"). Guess who got BOB and BOS? The two (now) in the front.

We've seen breed given to dogs that snark at other dogs (in and out of the ring). We've seen breed given to dogs that could barely walk - one was even limping the entire time. Heavily overweight dogs, you name it.

At least with the Belgians there's some inconsistency. Some judges to look at the dog and others don't. Collies here are a different story.
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