Italian bonitations - Page 5

massimo · 10-09-2009, 10:40

i posted the videos not because I think they are wrong or right, but just to show you what we are speaking about as TOO MANY of you speak about something they really know nothing of except "hearing" from others or guessing.
You've seen the video of the Slovak bonitation and here is the video of the Italian bonitation.

I am trying to be as open and subjective as possible.

According to the judge this test is sufficient to be able to evaluate the character of a dog.
This is the Character test made in Italy, whether you like it or not.

Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy.

My opinion is that the real character of a wolfdog cannot really be seen neither with this test or the Czech or Slovak test.
But we need an approximate information about the dog and the judge, when it's a GOOD judge, can see it even from a weak attack like the Slovak test or a strong attack next to the owner like the Italian one.

I respect your opinions, I hope you respect mine.

Massimo

Navarre · 10-09-2009, 10:45

This is the main difference from czech/slovak and italian, other are minimal.

I think it is a big difference as I said before.

@wolfin : about training...you can train even a dog leaved alone without owner!
W can discuss years about what test is better (for me leaving dog alone under attack is wrong and very useless, no other breed do this) but I really don't think this is the point.

Hanka · 10-09-2009, 10:47

Wow Massimo, write me more about it:
"Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy."
It is interest for me. Why? Is it any law? is it for short test of character too????

wolfin · 10-09-2009, 10:48

Massimo, i respect

only for my this is normal traning but not normal real situation when cann saw normal dogs character.
I know dogs, who are real agresive and cann make this italian atack when is with owner, but alone in CZ/SK test this dogs is veery small and not bark not atack only make down, not are owner, dog not is strong.
for this my like and I tested character like slovak - dog, cann be without training from house, but You cann saw normal realy hes character.
this is my opinion

massimo · 10-09-2009, 10:49

wolfin · 10-09-2009, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

Wow Massimo, write me more about it:
"Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy."
It is interest for me. Why? Is it any law? is it for short test of character too????

aha, Hanka see this

dogs in italian bonitation are atacked from figurant and very strong atack with jumping and speaking, and this is ok

but dog leaving alone and normal people who make with hem contact and later wish atack hem like normal, but stupid real man, this is not ok

why?
this 1 type is moore agresive dog type like 2 bonitation type

Navarre · 10-09-2009, 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy.

Sorry Max, this in NOT true. Really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

But we need an approximate information about the dog and the judge, when it's a GOOD judge, can see it even from a weak attack like the Slovak test or a strong attack next to the owner like the Italian one.

I agree, but we should give same possibility to every dog...as for the "stud list" we need rules that are the same for all.
If you make a different test, don't call it "bonitace" and give different results, what 's the problem ?

Hanka · 10-09-2009, 10:57

"Navarre": Of course, the figurant must have sense for dogs. If he see the dog is not selfconfident, he will not press him out and he must not to do shock of dog for all life

.
But these test sof character are here normal for all working breeds and I think our breed have tis test much "softest" than other working breed here. How we can know if it is dog with labil (stabil) character without seeing dog in different conditions? Often we can see dog only on bonitation, so we want know maximum about him. This dog will be "in much next generations" and we have future of breed in our hand.
This breed was made for work, so we must keep good character of breed. The beauty only is for nothing.

Navarre · 10-09-2009, 10:57

The italian "bonitace" is taken from a character test called CAL 1. This is the first step (of 3) for working breed as malinois and boxer.

This test provides as result APPROVED or NOT APPROVED, and not many results as bonitace.

massimo · 10-09-2009, 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navarre

Sorry Max, this in NOT true. Really.

This is what I was told, NOT by Italian Club but by one of the ENCI working persons.
Maybe I am wrong.
I will further investigate about it, and give you feedback.

Just one note: if we want...we can make ANY dog pull back if put on a pole and alone... all we need to do is make a STRONG attack.
The attacks I saw during Slovak Bonitations were NOT attacks...they were a lady with a stick going near the dog without looking at it.

In my opinion, i repeat, NEITHER of the tests are good enough to understand the real character of the dog. They help the judge, that's all.
If the Judge is a good judge (i never go to a Bonitation if I think the judge is NOT good enough...) he/she will be able to give the correct Character definition.
massimo

martiou07 · 10-09-2009, 11:05

I repeat my question, why does Italy make a different test? with a which aim? the Czechs and the Slovak ones set up tests adapted to a race they built, why Italy wants to make differently.

I am not at all agreement, a judge so good he can be cannot judge the character of the dog correctly right while basing himself on this test…

wolfin · 10-09-2009, 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

This is what I was told, NOT by Italian Club but by one of the ENCI working persons.
Maybe I am wrong.
I will further investigate about it, and give you feedback.

Just one note: if we want...we can make ANY dog pull back if put on a pole and alone... all we need to do is make a STRONG attack.
The attacks I saw during Slovak Bonitations were NOT attacks...they were a lady with a stick going near the dog without looking at it.

In my opinion, i repeat, NEITHER of the tests are good enough to understand the real character of the dog. They help the judge, that's all.
If the Judge is a good judge (i never go to a Bonitation if I think the judge is NOT good enough...) he/she will be able to give the correct Character definition.
massimo

AHA !!!!
Yes now I know all

You training dog for this and make this test in this method- You make like with GSD - hes korung cann make when dog have IPO 1 like minimum, this is same - You tested whe good is trainined dog, but NOT REAL dogs character.
Yes in this case italian dogs have good opinion in this test

when You tested hes trainable not real character

in this case i moore believe in this "lady with stick" but not in Yours profesional figurangt jumping

massimo this is my opinion

martiou07 · 10-09-2009, 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

Just one note: if we want...we can make ANY dog pull back if put on a pole and alone... all we need to do is make a STRONG attack.
The attacks I saw during Slovak Bonitations were NOT attacks...they were a lady with a stick going near the dog without looking at it.

you would have had to come at the time of the bonitations this year to France, this is not a woman and so that my dog is in this state, you can believe me, there was threat

massimo · 10-09-2009, 12:05

@martiou07
i speak for what i see.
If in france it's different, good for you. I referred ONLY to the slovak one, which i saw with my own eyes.
Allow me to quote a well known and well considered judge, Sona Bognarova.
"if the attack is strong or week it doesn't matter, i judge the reaction of the dog accordingly".

Daiva, i agree that we cannot see the real character of the dog with this Italian Character test. Any CSW can be trained to react to a figurant.
I agree with you 100%.
BUT I also don't think we can see the character from the slovak or czech test either.
The only thing I can do is trust the judge.
I am sorry but when I see a bonitation code i don't ask: where was it done??
I ask: who did it?
Some names are for me trustable with eyes closed...others I prefer seeing the dog with my own eyes.

I will NOT say the name but during a summer camp i went close to a dog who was on a chain and alone.
I was stupid because I thought he was young enough to accept me.
He bit my hand.
This dog is a wonderful and beautiful dog, used and appreciated internationally, but seeing a stranger approaching him in a calm way, he bit me.
I didn't tell anybody about this (of course, it was my fault) but I have my own opinion about him, I don't care what the judges say.
Oliver was on a chain alone too. He was barking and growling at ALL the dogs, but if a person came near him, he absolutely didn't care and wanted them to stroke him.
Again... i prefer having my own opinion of a dog's character, boniitation gives me just an idea.
massimo

wolfin · 10-09-2009, 12:17

Massimo, we speak about diferent bonitation, Yet I know who is in Italy. And yet have me personel opinion who is who.
OFF about dogs:
About dogs without owner and when he is leaving. I am in breed about 10-13 year, but i NOT going to others dogs, who is not me personel owned dogs, maybe I have moore brain or instinct. This is not me dog, and normal dogs reaction is bite. Speak with Pavel, he say this same. and in Pozna memorial is test - dogs not mas accept other people when is alone, he mas defence self.
If speak about me personel dogs, yes he is training for this

and better not going to my nice, wolfy doggy

when he is alone leaving

hard situation in ours land and I mas have real working dogs in my house

in others camp make special table- "Danger!!! lithuania piranias"

p.s. about this I speak and writte not one time

and You mas member this from others thema

Grin · 10-09-2009, 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

About dogs without owner and when he is leaving. I am in breed about 10-13 year, but i NOT going to others dogs, who is not me personel owned dogs, maybe I have moore brain or instinct. This is not me dog, and normal dogs reaction is bite. Speak with Pavel, he say this same. and in Pozna memorial is test - dogs not mas accept other people when is alone, he mas defence self.

I'm afraid I don't understand this.

I thought from what you've written so far, that the dog when left alone should behave calmly toward a person, who approaches to him/her in a normal (friendly) manner - even if that person earlier tried to provoke him/her with a stick (during a bonitation test of course). Now you write, that's guite normal, when a dog bites a man's hand (without a warning?) who didn't behave in a provocative way.

Please explain.

wolfin · 10-09-2009, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grin

I'm afraid I don't understand this.

I thought from what you've written so far, that the dog when left alone should behave calmly toward a person, who approaches to him/her in a normal (friendly) manner - even if that person earlier tried to provoke him/her with a stick (during a bonitation test of course). Now you write, that's guite normal, when a dog bites a man's hand (without a warning?) who didn't behave in a provocative way.

Please explain.

I explain You in privat, my polish is better like english
p.s. I say about my personel dogs, he have training to work like guard dogs and mas not make contact when is leaving on leash alone. This is his work

, when massimo speak about dogs, I reply, but this thema is not about my or hes dogs

back to bonitation

woland77 · 10-09-2009, 13:08

In Italy it is illegal to threaten the dog to the pole! Is allowed ZTP test, but on this test is without threaten! Reaction of dog when is alone at the pole, is self-defence, and this is normal for 99% of dogs. Shy dog can have self-defence reaction, balanced dog can have self-defence reaction, agressive dog can have self-defence reaction... The mimicry of the dog in self-defense is the same for both the dog's courage, for that balance and the shy. At the pole we can know the self-defence border (very important, self-defence is the first reason of bite), but without threaten, like ZTP.
The pole test like Czech-Slovak bonitation has meaning only in the selection of the military 30 years ago. All test bonitation, Italian too, are insufficient for a real character selection, on a work breed...How many years you have this code selection for character? Where are the working dogs results? Only a few dogs, for great desire of the owners, These results are almost never traceable to the choice of codes of bonitation!
I am convinced that now is the time to end up with these political issues, and is the moment to start with a real character selection for work dog, we need help from other breed, the CZW are very close...on other breed i have seen real result on 3-4 generation, with real test. Is moment to open the eyes!!

martiou07 · 10-09-2009, 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by woland77

In Italy it is illegal to threaten the dog to the pole! Is allowed ZTP test, but on this test is without threaten! Reaction of dog when is alone at the pole, is self-defence, and this is normal for 99% of dogs. Shy dog can have self-defence reaction, balanced dog can have self-defence reaction, agressive dog can have self-defence reaction... The mimicry of the dog in self-defense is the same for both the dog's courage, for that balance and the shy. At the pole we can know the self-defence border (very important, self-defence is the first reason of bite), but without threaten, like ZTP.
The pole test like Czech-Slovak bonitation has meaning only in the selection of the military 30 years ago. All test bonitation, Italian too, are insufficient for a real character selection, on a work breed...How many years you have this code selection for character? Where are the working dogs results? Only a few dogs, for great desire of the owners, These results are almost never traceable to the choice of codes of bonitation!
I am convinced that now is the time to end up with these political issues, and is the moment to start with a real character selection for work dog, we need help from other breed, the CZW are very close...on other breed i have seen real result on 3-4 generation, with real test. Is moment to open the eyes!!

is true, as you say it, the test of Italian nature can give to the same result an apprehensive dog or balanced.

That is completely different from the tests Slovaques and Czech, it is well damage which you cannot make these tests in Italy ...... In France, the wolfhound is interdict of discipline of corrosive, the first bonitation in France was a test, the club was a little refractory.
However, they note from now on that these tests are very interesting…

saschia · 10-09-2009, 13:31

OK, so quick overview:

1. The Slovak bonitation contains contact and weak attack by strange person with the owner absent
2. The Czech bonitation contains meeting of group of people with the dog on leash, and then contact and strong attack with the owner first present but not holding the dog and then again absent.
3. Italian bonitation contains meeting of group of people on the leash and then strong attack with owner holding the dog.

There are two main differences among these 3 types in my opinion:

1. Bonitations 1 and 2 contain contact and attack on dog without owner present. This shows how the dog reacts when on its own. Bonitation 3 does not show this at all.

2. Bonitations 2 and 3 show behavior with owner present. The meeting of group is a good thing but not vital, as the dog during the measurements reacts to strange people with owner present so the judge can see this. So the bonitation 1 also shows the behavior of dog with owner present. Therefore, if we take into account Sonya's word that the attack doesn't have to be strong to show the character, then there is no important difference between bonitations 1 and 2 and we can use the same code.

On the other hand, although bonitation 3 shows strong attack similar to bonitation 2, the owner is not only present, but is holding the dog. This creates even stronger influence of the presence of the owner, the dog feeling that he has both moral and physical support behind it (this is actually used for defence training - the owner holds the leash tightly to not loose physical contact with the dog), and actually having something else to protect except itself. With animals there is a distance limit, where the defense behavior changes from escape to fight. This distance is fairly short with wolves and dogs, so if the dog is attacked and afraid, it will try to run from even small distances. But with the owner on the other side of leash the distance limit may change and affect the dogs behavior.

Therefore I don't think the bonitation 3 should use the same codes as bonitations 1 and 2.

What I said here doesn't mean that the bonitations shows the dog character perfectly - far from it. But we didn't find any better way yet. But there is a big difference between 1+2 and 3, while only a small difference between 1 and 2.

I see the overview was not that quick ;o);

10-09-2009, 10:40	#81
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	i posted the videos not because I think they are wrong or right, but just to show you what we are speaking about as TOO MANY of you speak about something they really know nothing of except "hearing" from others or guessing. You've seen the video of the Slovak bonitation and here is the video of the Italian bonitation. I am trying to be as open and subjective as possible. According to the judge this test is sufficient to be able to evaluate the character of a dog. This is the Character test made in Italy, whether you like it or not. Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy. My opinion is that the real character of a wolfdog cannot really be seen neither with this test or the Czech or Slovak test. But we need an approximate information about the dog and the judge, when it's a GOOD judge, can see it even from a weak attack like the Slovak test or a strong attack next to the owner like the Italian one. I respect your opinions, I hope you respect mine. Massimo __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

10-09-2009, 10:45	#82
Navarre VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Roma Posts: 5,998	This is the main difference from czech/slovak and italian, other are minimal. I think it is a big difference as I said before. @wolfin : about training...you can train even a dog leaved alone without owner! W can discuss years about what test is better (for me leaving dog alone under attack is wrong and very useless, no other breed do this) but I really don't think this is the point. __________________ Susanna & Gianluca & Andrea & Navarre & Isabeau & Brandimarte & Anastasia & Lana Last Navarre & Beau Isabeau

10-09-2009, 10:48	#84
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	Massimo, i respect only for my this is normal traning but not normal real situation when cann saw normal dogs character. I know dogs, who are real agresive and cann make this italian atack when is with owner, but alone in CZ/SK test this dogs is veery small and not bark not atack only make down, not are owner, dog not is strong. for this my like and I tested character like slovak - dog, cann be without training from house, but You cann saw normal realy hes character. this is my opinion __________________

10-09-2009, 10:49	#85
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	Sorry i just noticed the links where not perfect. Please find below the right links Scusate i link ai video erano sbagliati! Barushka teaches Amore Mio http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903852799/ Group http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903841733/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904551672/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904490318/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904460162/ Shoot http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904612042/ Attack http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904574640/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904533370/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904510540/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903691113/ massimo __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

10-09-2009, 10:57	#89
Navarre VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Roma Posts: 5,998	The italian "bonitace" is taken from a character test called CAL 1. This is the first step (of 3) for working breed as malinois and boxer. This test provides as result APPROVED or NOT APPROVED, and not many results as bonitace. __________________ Susanna & Gianluca & Andrea & Navarre & Isabeau & Brandimarte & Anastasia & Lana Last Navarre & Beau Isabeau

10-09-2009, 10:47	#83
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Wow Massimo, write me more about it: "Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy." It is interest for me. Why? Is it any law? is it for short test of character too????

10-09-2009, 11:05	#91
martiou07 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: France Posts: 1,986	I repeat my question, why does Italy make a different test? with a which aim? the Czechs and the Slovak ones set up tests adapted to a race they built, why Italy wants to make differently. I am not at all agreement, a judge so good he can be cannot judge the character of the dog correctly right while basing himself on this test… __________________

10-09-2009, 12:05	#94
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	@martiou07 i speak for what i see. If in france it's different, good for you. I referred ONLY to the slovak one, which i saw with my own eyes. Allow me to quote a well known and well considered judge, Sona Bognarova. "if the attack is strong or week it doesn't matter, i judge the reaction of the dog accordingly". Daiva, i agree that we cannot see the real character of the dog with this Italian Character test. Any CSW can be trained to react to a figurant. I agree with you 100%. BUT I also don't think we can see the character from the slovak or czech test either. The only thing I can do is trust the judge. I am sorry but when I see a bonitation code i don't ask: where was it done?? I ask: who did it? Some names are for me trustable with eyes closed...others I prefer seeing the dog with my own eyes. I will NOT say the name but during a summer camp i went close to a dog who was on a chain and alone. I was stupid because I thought he was young enough to accept me. He bit my hand. This dog is a wonderful and beautiful dog, used and appreciated internationally, but seeing a stranger approaching him in a calm way, he bit me. I didn't tell anybody about this (of course, it was my fault) but I have my own opinion about him, I don't care what the judges say. Oliver was on a chain alone too. He was barking and growling at ALL the dogs, but if a person came near him, he absolutely didn't care and wanted them to stroke him. Again... i prefer having my own opinion of a dog's character, boniitation gives me just an idea. massimo __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

10-09-2009, 12:17	#95
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	Massimo, we speak about diferent bonitation, Yet I know who is in Italy. And yet have me personel opinion who is who. OFF about dogs: About dogs without owner and when he is leaving. I am in breed about 10-13 year, but i NOT going to others dogs, who is not me personel owned dogs, maybe I have moore brain or instinct. This is not me dog, and normal dogs reaction is bite. Speak with Pavel, he say this same. and in Pozna memorial is test - dogs not mas accept other people when is alone, he mas defence self. If speak about me personel dogs, yes he is training for this and better not going to my nice, wolfy doggy when he is alone leaving hard situation in ours land and I mas have real working dogs in my house in others camp make special table- "Danger!!! lithuania piranias" p.s. about this I speak and writte not one time and You mas member this from others thema __________________ Last edited by wolfin; 10-09-2009 at 12:22. Reason: p.s.

10-09-2009, 13:08	#98
woland77 Gran figl de putt Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,638	In Italy it is illegal to threaten the dog to the pole! Is allowed ZTP test, but on this test is without threaten! Reaction of dog when is alone at the pole, is self-defence, and this is normal for 99% of dogs. Shy dog can have self-defence reaction, balanced dog can have self-defence reaction, agressive dog can have self-defence reaction... The mimicry of the dog in self-defense is the same for both the dog's courage, for that balance and the shy. At the pole we can know the self-defence border (very important, self-defence is the first reason of bite), but without threaten, like ZTP. The pole test like Czech-Slovak bonitation has meaning only in the selection of the military 30 years ago. All test bonitation, Italian too, are insufficient for a real character selection, on a work breed...How many years you have this code selection for character? Where are the working dogs results? Only a few dogs, for great desire of the owners, These results are almost never traceable to the choice of codes of bonitation! I am convinced that now is the time to end up with these political issues, and is the moment to start with a real character selection for work dog, we need help from other breed, the CZW are very close...on other breed i have seen real result on 3-4 generation, with real test. Is moment to open the eyes!!

10-09-2009, 13:31	#100
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	OK, so quick overview: 1. The Slovak bonitation contains contact and weak attack by strange person with the owner absent 2. The Czech bonitation contains meeting of group of people with the dog on leash, and then contact and strong attack with the owner first present but not holding the dog and then again absent. 3. Italian bonitation contains meeting of group of people on the leash and then strong attack with owner holding the dog. There are two main differences among these 3 types in my opinion: 1. Bonitations 1 and 2 contain contact and attack on dog without owner present. This shows how the dog reacts when on its own. Bonitation 3 does not show this at all. 2. Bonitations 2 and 3 show behavior with owner present. The meeting of group is a good thing but not vital, as the dog during the measurements reacts to strange people with owner present so the judge can see this. So the bonitation 1 also shows the behavior of dog with owner present. Therefore, if we take into account Sonya's word that the attack doesn't have to be strong to show the character, then there is no important difference between bonitations 1 and 2 and we can use the same code. On the other hand, although bonitation 3 shows strong attack similar to bonitation 2, the owner is not only present, but is holding the dog. This creates even stronger influence of the presence of the owner, the dog feeling that he has both moral and physical support behind it (this is actually used for defence training - the owner holds the leash tightly to not loose physical contact with the dog), and actually having something else to protect except itself. With animals there is a distance limit, where the defense behavior changes from escape to fight. This distance is fairly short with wolves and dogs, so if the dog is attacked and afraid, it will try to run from even small distances. But with the owner on the other side of leash the distance limit may change and affect the dogs behavior. Therefore I don't think the bonitation 3 should use the same codes as bonitations 1 and 2. What I said here doesn't mean that the bonitations shows the dog character perfectly - far from it. But we didn't find any better way yet. But there is a big difference between 1+2 and 3, while only a small difference between 1 and 2. I see the overview was not that quick ;o); __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws