CzW ownership in Sweden

Villulv · 18-10-2002, 21:33

Wolfdogs are not banned in Sweden. I have proof of this in mails from the Swedish agricultural department, but only in Swedish.

Any wolfdog that you can prove to be F5 or higher is accepted by the authoritites - the only thing here is that the kennel club doesnt accept neither SWH nor CSV as registered breed.

And that is far from the same thing.

Sanna

Per Olav · 18-10-2002, 21:57

Hi Sanna.

This is the official statement of the Board of the Swedish Kennel Club
written in Swedish. I've asked Tonje on this list to translate it in her
fluent English.

Varghybrider godkanns ej i Sverige, Pressmeddelande, Svenska
Kennelklubbens Centralstyrelse 97-04-29
Svenska Kennelklubbens Centralstyrelse har beslutat att tv=E5 olika typer av
sk varghybrider, d v s korsningar mellan varg och hund, varken ska f=E5
registreras eller delta i verksamheter som arrangeras inom Svenska
Kennelklubben - trots att varghybriderna blivit godkanda utanf=F6r Sverige.
Bakgrunden till beslutet ar att tv=E5 hundraser som kan betraktas som
varghybrider godkants f=F6r registrering inom FCI (Federation Internationale
Cynelogique). FCI ar den internationella kennelorganisation som Svenska
Kennelklubben tillh=F6r. Det normala ar att Svenska Kennelklubben godkanner
de hundraser som godkandts av FCI. Beslutet innebar ett avsteg fr=E5n
gallande praxis.
Den ena av de aktuella raserna kommer fr=E5n f d Tjeckoslovakien, kallas
ceskoslovensky vlcak, och anses vara mycket skygg och vaksam. Den godkande s
interimistiskt av FCI 1992. Den andra rasen ar fr=E5n Holland, kallas
saarloos woolfhond, och har ett mycket reserverat och sjalvstandigt satt.
Den har blivit slutgiltigt godkand av FCI. B=E5da raserna ar mycket lika
vargen ocks=E5 till det yttre. Svenska Kennelklubben har tidigare tagit
definitivt avst=E5nd fr=E5n icke-registrerade varghybrider. Bl a i remisssvar
och i ett policybeslut som innebar att varghybrider inte till=E5ts delta i
n=E5gra verksamheter inom organisationen. Detsamma galler f=F6r den s k
pitbullterriern. En av anledningarna till det starka avst=E5ndstagandet fr =E5n
dessa rasblandningar ar en vasentligt =F6kad risk f=F6r skador p=E5 manniskor och
andra djur.

Per Olav

Villulv · 18-10-2002, 21:59

Quote:

If they are recognized by the FCI, why wouldn't they accept them as a breed?

Yes, that is a very good question that I have asked them. They cannot give a good answer to it. Personally I think that they have been told what to do by the authorities who are afraid of anything that has to do with wolves.

When I was in contact with both the kennel club and the agricultural office here they would do anything to avoid the question, and was not very easy to get something out of nor very friendly...but at last I got the F5-answer.

If there is any other information about these breeds being banned here I would certainly be interested in sharing them, until then I will rely on that the answers I have gotten from the people in charge are correct. So - if you know of anything else, please let me know. I am preparing for trips abroad to study the CSV and would very much like to know of any information that would concern this if I decide to bring a puppy home.

Sanna

Villulv · 18-10-2002, 22:13

Thank you, and yes - I have seen it before. But still I dont think they give a good answer to the fact that they do not follow decisions made by the FCI. What they say here is about the same that the norwegian authorities claim, which depends on lack of knowledge abour these breeds.

And as said before - the fact that the swedish kennel club does not accept them and wont let them take part in activities organized by the club is not the same as that the breeds are banned from importation.

Sanna

Per Olav · 18-10-2002, 22:15

Hi Sanna.

Yes, it's an odd situation. The Government accept the breed, The Kennel
Club does not.

z Peronówki · 19-10-2002, 00:55

Quote:

As I have said before, they are not banned in Sweden. I have proof of this
in mails from the Swedish agricultural department, but only in Swedish.
Sanna

Right. That's the reason why I wrote "there are problems"

Greetings,
Margo

Per Olav · 19-10-2002, 11:42

Hi all.

These are the Swedish Kennel Club arguments for not accepting the CSV and SW :

Wolf hybrids not approved in Sweden. Press notice from the Board of the
Swedish Kennel Club 97-04-29.
The Board of the Swedish Kennel Club has decided that two different types of
socalled wolf hybrids, i.e. crosses between wolf and dog, neither will be
allowed registration or participation in activities arranged by the Swedish
Kennel Club - even though the wolf hybrids have been recognized outside
Sweden. The basis for the decision is that two dog breeds that can be
regarded as wolf hybrids, have been accepted for registration in the FCI
(Federation Internationale Cynelogique). FCI is the international kennel
organisation of which the Swedish Kennel Club is a member. In general the
Swedish Kennel Club recognizes dog breeds recognized by FCI. The decision
constitutes a divergence from normal practise.
One of the breeds in question comes from former Czechoslavakia, is called
ceskoslovensky vlcak and is considered very shy and watchful. It was given an
interrim approval by the FCI in 1992. The other breed is from the Netherlands,
is called saarloos woolfhond, and has a very reserved and independent manner.
This breed has a final FCI approval. Both breeds are very similar to the wolf,
also exterior wise. The Swedish kennel Club has previously taken a definite
position against non-registered wolf hybrids, through, eg.
"remisssvar"(written and posted answers?) and in a policy decision not to
allow wolf breeds to participate in any activities within the organisation.
The same applies to the socalled pitbull terrier. One of the reasons for the
strong dissociation from these breedmixes, is a considerably increased risk of
harm to people and other animals.

---
Per Olav

wolfeywolf · 19-10-2002, 12:49

it seems that 'little red riding hood syndrome' has a lot to answer for.
these people don't want facts, they base all their thoughts on fairy tails
and heresay!
laura
ps. if anyone knows of a breeder willing to keep a pup for export to the UK.
please let me know, i am willing to pay costs etc

Huan · 19-10-2002, 12:57

Quote:

Both breeds are very similar to the wolf,
also exterior wise. The Swedish kennel Club has previously taken a
definite position against non-registered wolf hybrids,

Wow. Then maybe other countries should also reconsider the option to ban the
Swedish breed called Swedish Vallhund which exactly looks like a wolf but
with genetic problem which cause short legs. The Swedish kennel club has no
idea about our breeds and I have no idea about Swedish Vallhund but I assume
that they are very aggresive and can be dangerous to other dogs and people
because they look like a wolf. Sorry but I see no other solution but to ban
Swedish Vallhund.

))))))))))))))

Greetings,
Przemek

Villulv · 19-10-2002, 13:05

Maybe this is a little bit beside the subject of the list but still it has to do with what we have to fight against.

At one of the "hatred-meetings" against the wolf that I visited recently one of the hunters even seriously referred to this fairy tale as being a source of fact to wolves praying on children...

Sanna

Villulv · 19-10-2002, 13:21

Agree.

But the fact remains that the ones with power lacks knowledge, and it is very hard to change that, especially with a hundreds of years of hatred of the wolf.

In Sweden and Norway haters publish articles about "wolf-hybrids" (and here they refer to SWH and CSV among mixes wolf/dog) being let out in nature forming packs and attacking sheep and possibly people. Some of the ignorant people with power believes that there is some truth in this propaganda. I believe this could affect the possibilities of these breeds being banned in both countries in the future.

Sanna

wolfeywolf · 19-10-2002, 13:50

we used to suffer the same here in the uk with our Northern inuit dogs, but
whenever i go anywhere with mine now i get stopped and kids always want a
cuddle with 'the wolfie' i find children far more accepting than most adults
and sometimes they have far more knowledge.
we do have writers changing the childrens stories.we now have 'the 3 little
wolves and the big bad pig' . more are changing so it shows that public
opion has changed a lot.
we can only hope that our children will be well informed about what is
truely dangerous and what is a well known family dog.
beleive me, this breed eg. CzW & SW) would in no way be shunned or banned in
the uk.
laura

Villulv · 19-10-2002, 15:16

Yes, this is true - but until these kids are the ones who is in charge, the problem remains for both wolves and wolfdogs. I dont think our wolves can survive until then (because they are poor genetically and cant get new blood because of the iron wall called Lapland) and I certainly dont want the wolfdogs to be banned all this time. The problem Per Olav has been discussing for some time now is more than likely to spread to Sweden if it comes true.

Sanna

Per Olav · 19-10-2002, 16:06

Quote:

Agree.

But the fact remains that the ones with power lacks knowledge,
and it is very hard to change that, especially with a hundreds of years of
hatred of the wolf. (...)
Sanna

That's right Sanna

The major concern of the Norwegian Kennel Club and their professionals is
the lack of knowledge by the legislators.
It's like the legislators drawing a horisontal line on a white sheet of
paper, - every breed above the line is accepted and those below are banned.
The Norwegian Ministry of Justice is looking to the Swedish dog
policy. The Norwegian haters of wolves are referring to the SKK and its
policy regarding the CSV and SW and hereby suggest that the Swedish
governmental dog policy is identical with the one of the SKK . Just a few
are aware of the difference.

It is my personal anticipation that the Norwegian legislators will be in
favour of the policy of the SKK unless a radical change of view is observed
by the SKK. According to a mail received from the Chairman of the Board of
the SKK this is unlikely to happen. As a reply to his answer I today have
questioned the SKK of the professional principles of valuation of which the
SKK has based its denial of registration regarding these two breeds. Maybe
this should be done by a few more?

If the Norwegian government is endorsing this new law where a ban of
wolfdogs is included, our neighbour contry Sweden will be the next one to
suffer. When auditing the Swedish dog law the Swedish legislators
inevitably will look to Norway.....

---
Per Olav

Villulv · 19-10-2002, 17:39

Exactly, this is what most probably will happen. And I fear that the norwegian people already have contacts about this with the swedes, which will encourage the norwegians further to ban the breeds, because this is what the swedish legislators have been wanting to do in years. In other words - if this proposal in Norway runs through, the whole Scandinavia will be both wolf- and wolfdogfree. At least officially.

You suggest Per Olav, that more people will ask the SKK about the reasons for their policy. This may be a good idea, but dont expect any straight answers. I have been trying to get some answers about this question
several times. Either they dont answer at all, or they send you a short notice drawn from their official text as the one you sent here before. No explanation at all, and if you percist, they become dead silent.

Sanna

Villulv · 19-10-2002, 19:13

Excuse my ignorance, but is Tjeckia and Slovakia members of the EU or EFTA? And which generation is the CSV considered as a breed? This is important to know in contacts with the authorities.

Sanna

Per Olav · 19-10-2002, 23:29

Hi.
As Sanna writes, this may be a question of importance.
As both the Swedish and the Norwegian Governments accept the FCI
regulations, the F5 generation of a wolf/dog cross is regarded as pure breed.
The Saarloos wolfhounds kept in Norway are verified F7. What about the
F-number(s) of the present Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?

Even so, the Swedisk Kennel Club in its press release states:
- The Board of the Swedish Kennel Club has decided that two different types
of socalled wolf hybrids, i.e. crosses between wolf and dog, neither will
be allowed registration or participation in activities arranged by the
Swedish Kennel Club - even though the wolf hybrids have been recognized
outside Sweden. The basis for the decision is that two dog breeds that can
be regarded as wolf hybrids, have been accepted for registration in the
FCI (Federation Internationale Cynelogique). FCI is the international
kennel organisation of which the Swedish Kennel Club is a member. In
general the Swedish Kennel Club recognizes dog breeds recognized by FCI.
The decision constitutes a divergence from normal practise.

Please note that the SKK consistently is misnaming the two breeds as hybrids.

Huan · 20-10-2002, 14:08

Quote:

regulations, the F5 generation of a wolf/dog cross is regarded as pure
breed. The Saarloos wolfhounds kept in Norway are verified F7. What about the F-number(s) of the present Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?

The principle is that all CzWs should be F5. It usually so that the CzWs in
Slovakia are more related to the wolves than the Czech CzWs. CzWs in Czech
Republic are usually F7-F8 (with few that are F5) but in Slovakia there are
many dogs that are strong related to Rep z PS which was F3 and are F5-F6. I
know even about one CzW in Slovakia (and maybe there are a few more) that is
F4. But the average is F7-F8 I think. But you should remember that with
every few years the F average will be increase... I mean that in let say 10
years the average will be maybe F9-F10.

Greetings,
Przemek

Huan · 20-10-2002, 14:09

Quote:

The principle is that all CzWs should be F5

Small correction... CzWs should be F5 or _higher_.

Tina · 20-10-2002, 15:41

Quote:

But the average is F7-F8 I think. But you should remember that with
every few years the F average will be increase... I mean that in let say 10
years the average will be maybe F9-F10.

If they are F8 they should be "free" from the minimum 1% .. unless there is
wolfblood on both sides, and then you have to ADD the 2 before you divide,
thus keeping the % much higher ;(

18-10-2002, 21:33	#1
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	CzW ownership in Sweden Wolfdogs are not banned in Sweden. I have proof of this in mails from the Swedish agricultural department, but only in Swedish. Any wolfdog that you can prove to be F5 or higher is accepted by the authoritites - the only thing here is that the kennel club doesnt accept neither SWH nor CSV as registered breed. And that is far from the same thing. Sanna

18-10-2002, 21:57	#2
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	Import Hi Sanna. This is the official statement of the Board of the Swedish Kennel Club written in Swedish. I've asked Tonje on this list to translate it in her fluent English. Varghybrider godkanns ej i Sverige, Pressmeddelande, Svenska Kennelklubbens Centralstyrelse 97-04-29 Svenska Kennelklubbens Centralstyrelse har beslutat att tv=E5 olika typer av sk varghybrider, d v s korsningar mellan varg och hund, varken ska f=E5 registreras eller delta i verksamheter som arrangeras inom Svenska Kennelklubben - trots att varghybriderna blivit godkanda utanf=F6r Sverige. Bakgrunden till beslutet ar att tv=E5 hundraser som kan betraktas som varghybrider godkants f=F6r registrering inom FCI (Federation Internationale Cynelogique). FCI ar den internationella kennelorganisation som Svenska Kennelklubben tillh=F6r. Det normala ar att Svenska Kennelklubben godkanner de hundraser som godkandts av FCI. Beslutet innebar ett avsteg fr=E5n gallande praxis. Den ena av de aktuella raserna kommer fr=E5n f d Tjeckoslovakien, kallas ceskoslovensky vlcak, och anses vara mycket skygg och vaksam. Den godkande s interimistiskt av FCI 1992. Den andra rasen ar fr=E5n Holland, kallas saarloos woolfhond, och har ett mycket reserverat och sjalvstandigt satt. Den har blivit slutgiltigt godkand av FCI. B=E5da raserna ar mycket lika vargen ocks=E5 till det yttre. Svenska Kennelklubben har tidigare tagit definitivt avst=E5nd fr=E5n icke-registrerade varghybrider. Bl a i remisssvar och i ett policybeslut som innebar att varghybrider inte till=E5ts delta i n=E5gra verksamheter inom organisationen. Detsamma galler f=F6r den s k pitbullterriern. En av anledningarna till det starka avst=E5ndstagandet fr =E5n dessa rasblandningar ar en vasentligt =F6kad risk f=F6r skador p=E5 manniskor och andra djur. Per Olav

18-10-2002, 22:13	#4
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	Import Thank you, and yes - I have seen it before. But still I dont think they give a good answer to the fact that they do not follow decisions made by the FCI. What they say here is about the same that the norwegian authorities claim, which depends on lack of knowledge abour these breeds. And as said before - the fact that the swedish kennel club does not accept them and wont let them take part in activities organized by the club is not the same as that the breeds are banned from importation. Sanna

18-10-2002, 22:15	#5
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	Import Hi Sanna. Yes, it's an odd situation. The Government accept the breed, The Kennel Club does not.

19-10-2002, 11:42	#7
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	The press notice from the Board of The Swedish Kennel Club Hi all. These are the Swedish Kennel Club arguments for not accepting the CSV and SW : Wolf hybrids not approved in Sweden. Press notice from the Board of the Swedish Kennel Club 97-04-29. The Board of the Swedish Kennel Club has decided that two different types of socalled wolf hybrids, i.e. crosses between wolf and dog, neither will be allowed registration or participation in activities arranged by the Swedish Kennel Club - even though the wolf hybrids have been recognized outside Sweden. The basis for the decision is that two dog breeds that can be regarded as wolf hybrids, have been accepted for registration in the FCI (Federation Internationale Cynelogique). FCI is the international kennel organisation of which the Swedish Kennel Club is a member. In general the Swedish Kennel Club recognizes dog breeds recognized by FCI. The decision constitutes a divergence from normal practise. One of the breeds in question comes from former Czechoslavakia, is called ceskoslovensky vlcak and is considered very shy and watchful. It was given an interrim approval by the FCI in 1992. The other breed is from the Netherlands, is called saarloos woolfhond, and has a very reserved and independent manner. This breed has a final FCI approval. Both breeds are very similar to the wolf, also exterior wise. The Swedish kennel Club has previously taken a definite position against non-registered wolf hybrids, through, eg. "remisssvar"(written and posted answers?) and in a policy decision not to allow wolf breeds to participate in any activities within the organisation. The same applies to the socalled pitbull terrier. One of the reasons for the strong dissociation from these breedmixes, is a considerably increased risk of harm to people and other animals. --- Per Olav

19-10-2002, 12:49	#8
wolfeywolf Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16	Import it seems that 'little red riding hood syndrome' has a lot to answer for. these people don't want facts, they base all their thoughts on fairy tails and heresay! laura ps. if anyone knows of a breeder willing to keep a pup for export to the UK. please let me know, i am willing to pay costs etc

19-10-2002, 13:05	#10
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	Import Maybe this is a little bit beside the subject of the list but still it has to do with what we have to fight against. At one of the "hatred-meetings" against the wolf that I visited recently one of the hunters even seriously referred to this fairy tale as being a source of fact to wolves praying on children... Sanna

19-10-2002, 13:21	#11
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	The press notice from the Board of The Swedish Kennel Club Agree. But the fact remains that the ones with power lacks knowledge, and it is very hard to change that, especially with a hundreds of years of hatred of the wolf. In Sweden and Norway haters publish articles about "wolf-hybrids" (and here they refer to SWH and CSV among mixes wolf/dog) being let out in nature forming packs and attacking sheep and possibly people. Some of the ignorant people with power believes that there is some truth in this propaganda. I believe this could affect the possibilities of these breeds being banned in both countries in the future. Sanna

19-10-2002, 13:50	#12
wolfeywolf Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16	The press notice from the Board of The Swedish Kennel Club we used to suffer the same here in the uk with our Northern inuit dogs, but whenever i go anywhere with mine now i get stopped and kids always want a cuddle with 'the wolfie' i find children far more accepting than most adults and sometimes they have far more knowledge. we do have writers changing the childrens stories.we now have 'the 3 little wolves and the big bad pig' . more are changing so it shows that public opion has changed a lot. we can only hope that our children will be well informed about what is truely dangerous and what is a well known family dog. beleive me, this breed eg. CzW & SW) would in no way be shunned or banned in the uk. laura

19-10-2002, 15:16	#13
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	The press notice from the Board of The Swedish Kennel Club Yes, this is true - but until these kids are the ones who is in charge, the problem remains for both wolves and wolfdogs. I dont think our wolves can survive until then (because they are poor genetically and cant get new blood because of the iron wall called Lapland) and I certainly dont want the wolfdogs to be banned all this time. The problem Per Olav has been discussing for some time now is more than likely to spread to Sweden if it comes true. Sanna

19-10-2002, 17:39	#15
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	The press notice from the Board of The Swedish Kennel Club Exactly, this is what most probably will happen. And I fear that the norwegian people already have contacts about this with the swedes, which will encourage the norwegians further to ban the breeds, because this is what the swedish legislators have been wanting to do in years. In other words - if this proposal in Norway runs through, the whole Scandinavia will be both wolf- and wolfdogfree. At least officially. You suggest Per Olav, that more people will ask the SKK about the reasons for their policy. This may be a good idea, but dont expect any straight answers. I have been trying to get some answers about this question several times. Either they dont answer at all, or they send you a short notice drawn from their official text as the one you sent here before. No explanation at all, and if you percist, they become dead silent. Sanna

19-10-2002, 19:13	#16
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	Elementary questions Excuse my ignorance, but is Tjeckia and Slovakia members of the EU or EFTA? And which generation is the CSV considered as a breed? This is important to know in contacts with the authorities. Sanna

19-10-2002, 23:29	#17
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	Elementary questions Hi. As Sanna writes, this may be a question of importance. As both the Swedish and the Norwegian Governments accept the FCI regulations, the F5 generation of a wolf/dog cross is regarded as pure breed. The Saarloos wolfhounds kept in Norway are verified F7. What about the F-number(s) of the present Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs? Even so, the Swedisk Kennel Club in its press release states: - The Board of the Swedish Kennel Club has decided that two different types of socalled wolf hybrids, i.e. crosses between wolf and dog, neither will be allowed registration or participation in activities arranged by the Swedish Kennel Club - even though the wolf hybrids have been recognized outside Sweden. The basis for the decision is that two dog breeds that can be regarded as wolf hybrids, have been accepted for registration in the FCI (Federation Internationale Cynelogique). FCI is the international kennel organisation of which the Swedish Kennel Club is a member. In general the Swedish Kennel Club recognizes dog breeds recognized by FCI. The decision constitutes a divergence from normal practise. Please note that the SKK consistently is misnaming the two breeds as hybrids.