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Old 12-02-2010, 22:18   #41
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i would say on the off chance it is definately one of these,ha ha
sorry can not get pic to upload here is link have a very very good look at this pic then make your own mind up, shape of head, narrow chest, coat, ect ect,,,
http://ukwolfdogs.com/kizzy_pups_18....ta1_type=large
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Old 12-02-2010, 23:19   #42
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Hmmmmmm... yes it is...

But the question one must ask is way do the breed look more and more differant when it is to look more and more similar and fixed for every generation ??? And way is there so extreme differance on the puppy´s sometimes in the same litter ???

Therefor I got one more question for you all...

What is this ???












Very best regards / Mikael
hi, i have mentioned this subject lots of times and it is ignored but now that you mention it Mikael as i have often said there is a growing difference in the appearence of the CWS from different countries and its very clear, the type is not being mentained and is slipping away by the day, the photos of the wolfdog at start of this post is good example, so is this a registered CWS? if so then WHO ADDED THE NEW WOLF BLOOD LINE AT LEAST TWO GENERATIONS AGO AND DID NOT SAY........ like most of you have commented it is a beautiful animal of that there is no doubt, i have owned CWS for over 10yrs but i have owned other wolfdogs and wolves for many more years, as you all know i did use male CWS on wolves over the years and i do have some very beautiful animals, but i have never had one nice remark made about mine only all the s..t from people on wolfdog.org for crossing cws with wolf, big difference is I DONT REGISTER THEM AS CWS,,,, why would any one who can breed such beautiful animals want to hide them behind the name of another breed??? if you look on my web site at this photo http://ukwolfdogs.com/kizzy_pups_18....ta1_type=large it is a third generation from wolf and cws cross, seems someone in Europe isnt happy with the way there cws look. as for why do pups from same litters sometimes look so different,this is not uncommon in dog breeding with new breeds but as you state as time goes by and the generations grow the type will become steady, if you add a wolf to the lines and breed forward with just cws then in 3 generations the type will be as normal again with the only trace of the wolf will be on paper, In France wolf has been added to both CWS and Saarloos but as normal it is ignored, you seem to be noticing changes Mikael maybe you should look at lots more pics on wolfdog.org and also remember there are now lots of litters bred that dont even reach this data base, and one last thing dont forget there are coydogs in Europe...... regards pacino
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Old 13-02-2010, 01:25   #43
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http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9689
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d10707.html
2 cws
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Old 13-02-2010, 13:31   #44
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hi, i have mentioned this subject lots of times and it is ignored but now that you mention it Mikael as i have often said there is a growing difference in the appearence of the CWS from different countries and its very clear, the type is not being mentained and is slipping away by the day, the photos of the wolfdog at start of this post is good example, so is this a registered CWS? if so then WHO ADDED THE NEW WOLF BLOOD LINE AT LEAST TWO GENERATIONS AGO AND DID NOT SAY........ like most of you have commented it is a beautiful animal of that there is no doubt, i have owned CWS for over 10yrs but i have owned other wolfdogs and wolves for many more years, as you all know i did use male CWS on wolves over the years and i do have some very beautiful animals, but i have never had one nice remark made about mine only all the s..t from people on wolfdog.org for crossing cws with wolf, big difference is I DONT REGISTER THEM AS CWS,,,, why would any one who can breed such beautiful animals want to hide them behind the name of another breed??? if you look on my web site at this photo http://ukwolfdogs.com/kizzy_pups_18....ta1_type=large it is a third generation from wolf and cws cross, seems someone in Europe isnt happy with the way there cws look. as for why do pups from same litters sometimes look so different,this is not uncommon in dog breeding with new breeds but as you state as time goes by and the generations grow the type will become steady, if you add a wolf to the lines and breed forward with just cws then in 3 generations the type will be as normal again with the only trace of the wolf will be on paper, In France wolf has been added to both CWS and Saarloos but as normal it is ignored, you seem to be noticing changes Mikael maybe you should look at lots more pics on wolfdog.org and also remember there are now lots of litters bred that dont even reach this data base, and one last thing dont forget there are coydogs in Europe...... regards pacino

Just from a breeding standpoint in general (not touching the addition of wolves in breeding programs with a 12 ft pole!) it is in absolutely no way necessary to "have to" add wolves into the breed to maintain or work towards a standard. It has everything to do with different breeders having different aesthetic rather than losing wolf blood. Look at EVERY other dog breed in the world and you'll find variation. The best example is the GSD, which the CSV was even bred from. Look at how drastic the differences are between dogs of different countries, and then within those countries, the differences between working and show lines. They don't even look like the same breed!

That's also only considering people that are working to better a breed by working towards a standard. What about the people that just don't care about anything but selling puppies? I'm a groomer and work with dogs and see on average 15-20 different dogs a day, usually similar breeds. I can have 5 dogs, all "bichons" according to their owners, and none of them will look anything alike!

The only way to really unify the standard of a breed in my opinion is to make the standard very specific, so it's not open to interpretation. Unfortunately, this often times is the cause of breeds being taken to the extreme because people breed for really inane things in the standard. I'm personally ok with a little breed variation based on taste if it means the standard is open enough to allow for a breeder's specific vision of the perfect CSV.
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Old 13-02-2010, 17:42   #45
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Originally Posted by solowolf View Post
hi, i have mentioned this subject lots of times and it is ignored but now that you mention it Mikael...

As for why do pups from same litters sometimes look so different,this is not uncommon in dog breeding with new breeds but as you state as time goes by and the generations grow the type will become steady...

regards pacino
Exactly my point !!!

Now is this a steady litter ??? I do not think so...

Maybe one or two of them look as a CsV standard dog, the rest look like mixes to me...
but it is the same litter

Iuna ---Casa della Rosa--- X Dredo ---dell'Irco Sortiere--- litter from 2008-11-14

>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d5238.html

















And I think it did started about here...
>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d4002.html

Now what do you think ???


Very best regards / Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 13-02-2010 at 17:53.
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Old 13-02-2010, 19:15   #46
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I think that the similarity of the the litter ended to be, in this case, about what a good photografer can do.
If you forget about it and try to evaluate the dog without took in consideration the magic of the photo, you will see that all them have some similar characteristics.
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Old 13-02-2010, 22:19   #47
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I think that the similarity of the the litter ended to be, in this case, about what a good photografer can do.
If you forget about it and try to evaluate the dog without took in consideration the magic of the photo, you will see that all them have some similar characteristics.
i have looked at the photos and i agree with you they all have one thing in common they are all DOGS,, apart from that they are chalk and cheeze,,, tail set in one of the pics is well lost for words,,,,,, now have look at bone, pic 2 and 4, then look at rest, notice the heavy fur on inner ears, i know to well where this comes from, shape of ears the rounded tips,,, big difference in coats, color and lenght, back ends, pic 2 and 4 look at return of stifle, then look at the others,not even close, i have seen plenty of litters with variations but this litter is hard to believe, in fact i dont believe it is one litter at all.
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Old 13-02-2010, 22:50   #48
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Just from a breeding standpoint in general (not touching the addition of wolves in breeding programs with a 12 ft pole!) it is in absolutely no way necessary to "have to" add wolves into the breed to maintain or work towards a standard. It has everything to do with different breeders having different aesthetic rather than losing wolf blood. Look at EVERY other dog breed in the world and you'll find variation. The best example is the GSD, which the CSV was even bred from. Look at how drastic the differences are between dogs of different countries, and then within those countries, the differences between working and show lines. They don't even look like the same breed!

That's also only considering people that are working to better a breed by working towards a standard. What about the people that just don't care about anything but selling puppies? I'm a groomer and work with dogs and see on average 15-20 different dogs a day, usually similar breeds. I can have 5 dogs, all "bichons" according to their owners, and none of them will look anything alike!

The only way to really unify the standard of a breed in my opinion is to make the standard very specific, so it's not open to interpretation. Unfortunately, this often times is the cause of breeds being taken to the extreme because people breed for really inane things in the standard. I'm personally ok with a little breed variation based on taste if it means the standard is open enough to allow for a breeder's specific vision of the perfect CSV.
hi, yes i agree you dont need wolf in the czech anymore, and variations to certain degree must be excepted in every breed, but the degree in variation is now getting bit rediculous and on numerous occasions i have visited wolfdog data base looking for new lines to buy or for stud dogs to use and i always get new surprise ever time, i am for selective breeding and useing the best i can get, if i dont get then i dont breed, and i have bred in the past with other breeds and have used the best and it didnt work, so its not all pick the best and it great, dog breeding to me is like playing russian roullette, you can look at pedigree see dog is compatible, then is it complete out cross or are you line or in breeding, the health checks are good and you breed, what do you get,,,, you can only do your best and use your experience and judgement, but if it dosent work i will tell my friends and show what i have bred, i learned alot in dogs from listening to people who have been doing it longer than me, the CWS is a fantastic breed, i will never be without one but people need to work hard and work together and this breed will do well in the future, my friend and i bred Akitas for many years, my bitch redwitch dancer produced the top winning dog of Austrilia and a bitch was top winning bitch USA, but i stopped breeding Akitas because no one would import new blood lines, the gene pool was shrinking and i got out, i wanted no part in what was to become of the akita in uk, and im glad i did,, i have only bred 3 litters of CWS and i have one due soon i hope but i have imported some dogs, one of which i will not use but give away as pet for it did not come to what i expected, i made a mistake it was costly but i admit it was partly my fault, but i wont breed like some to try and recoup my money back. when the kennel club insist on dna before pedigree is isued i will be happy, untill then we watch,,,,,,,,pacino
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Old 13-02-2010, 23:24   #49
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Exactly my point !!!

Now is this a steady litter ??? I do not think so...

Maybe one or two of them look as a CsV standard dog, the rest look like mixes to me...
but it is the same litter

Iuna ---Casa della Rosa--- X Dredo ---dell'Irco Sortiere--- litter from 2008-11-14

>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d5238.html

















And I think it did started about here...
>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d4002.html

Now what do you think ???


Very best regards / Mikael
i think cameras where invented before the date the pups where born so maybe we can get photos of the bitch? there are plenty of pics of other bitchs used by this breeder, i think there is something very not correct here and i think everyone is due explaination, i do not believe all these dogs in pics are from same litter.
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Old 14-02-2010, 00:12   #50
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I read the last comments of this post and really couldn't stop laughing!!
The only "serious" comment was made of course by the one who has most rational mind...Paula.
You are comparing pics made on snow and pics not, 3-4 months puppies with almost adults...pics made by semi pros and pics made by amateurs...
Oh gosh!!
Do you want me to show you Galiba pics and the ones of his brothers? or Eligo put next to his brothers? do they all look the same??
they are ONE litter...with normal differences from brothers.
Witch hunt!!
Witch hunt!!
Witch hunt!!
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Old 14-02-2010, 00:13   #51
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I think .... I think ... No, I don’t think, I say. I only know that these puppies are CSW and they are not hybrids, they are simply the result of a work of 2 people who love the breed and trying to improve it.
All this puppies (6) are regularly registred in the LOI, and if you want to do the DNA test you come to take samples.
I’m sorry for my bad English.
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Old 14-02-2010, 08:27   #52
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notice the heavy fur on inner ears, i know to well where this comes from, shape of ears the rounded tips,,,
Tell us, were does it come from?

Michael
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Old 14-02-2010, 09:40   #53
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Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
Try to evaluate the dog without took in consideration the magic of the photo, you will see that all them have some similar characteristics.
Yes they might have some similarities as they probably are born from the same mother And I think also the same father

I do not blame this breeder, I do not think they did mix, but I do think Passo del lupo did. as I already did say...

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 14-02-2010, 13:40   #54
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the father and mather are CSW and the puppy are brother .
This is Duska :
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Old 14-02-2010, 14:42   #55
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Maybe one or two of them look as a CsV standard dog, the rest look like mixes to me...
but it is the same litter
Are not mixes but CLC register in ENCI - no mixed with anything. Look some strange because the same different eyes has the father Anouk (in pedigree Dredo) and many his puppies have such strange eyes but are real CLC.

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It is also not mix but many young dogs here in Italia have hanging ears. It is common fault but dogs here - for me one very common for dogs from Passo del Lupos lineage.
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Old 14-02-2010, 17:45   #56
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It's incredible!!!!!!

I know very well Dredo and Iuna and ARE CSW !!!! In Italy you can find something similar to Mutara(a few years and not only from pdl) but it's impossible find something similar to European wolf like this..also because in Italy is illegal have a real wolf and impossible to capture it.

Is was a breeding very successful betwen two CSW pure,without a drop of blood of wolf or other....




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Old 14-02-2010, 18:00   #57
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You can't blame and damage a kennel (casa della rosa) just because they take their dogs from passo del lupo ten years ago... when things like mutaras (that are not an italian idea ) didn't even exist... look at the dates, PdL was at their first litters...

I own neither a "casa della rosa" nor a "pdl" wolfdog. It's just unfair.

Read trought this passage..!!!

It's very important...great Micaela!
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Old 14-02-2010, 19:29   #58
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... notice the heavy fur on inner ears ...
loooooooool

Have I to shave "the heavy fur on inner ears" of my dogs now???
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Old 14-02-2010, 22:38   #59
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loooooooool

Have I to shave "the heavy fur on inner ears" of my dogs now???
i have looked at the pics of your dogs all have normal ears and and normal amount of fur, the photo of the pup in third frame has lots more than normal czech, no one is blaming the breeder of this litter for anything but the truth is there is a cross lined dog or bitch in its lines that for sure, i breed F1 F2 F3 AND ONWARD. the cws and saarloos have more crossed lines than you can ever imagine, including malamute cross done in southern France, saarloos and cws cross done in northern france, and pure wolf to saarloos and cws in southern france the wolf used was not european wolf and was done in 1990s. FACTS not bulls..t. p.s and also high wolf content male to saarloos still going on today with pups still being registered as pure bred. one young couple have pup from this breeding that is not year old and can do nothing with it, it is so shy and they are not experienced enough to do any work with it, so dont think for one minute you have any idea of what has went on with cross breeding in the cws, id ont go on hearsay or listen ti gossip i go and find out the true facts, and my wife and i where both in the company of the people from france and holland who done some of this as they trusted us at that time,,,,,,,,
so how do you feel about the breedings of passo del lupo that are on this data base??? or are you to busy shaving your dogs ears,,,,,,, myself and others will now take look at all breeders and registered litters on this data base for people who abuse there bitchs and make list for publication in dog mags to warn buyers and put there names on lots of wolfdog and wolfdog related web sites naming and shaming them and hopefully get the authorities involved in animal welfare.
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Old 14-02-2010, 22:39   #60
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never mind the ears what are you lot going to do with the kennels passo del lupo and his abuse of his bitchs, F..k all your to busy putting up your stupid silly f..king remarks about one litter that have no type, while bitchs suffer in Italy at the hands of this breeder, not one of you give a dam about the CWS, you are a load of w....ers, Today i have written letter to FCI lodging complaint about the exessive breeding of bitchs by the passo del lupo kennels it is backed up by two vets, my friends in europe will also now get involved as we will not sit back and see animals abused like this, ITS YOUR BREED YOUR BELOVED CWS, as for cross breeding in europe i lived in europe for 5 yrs and i can give you list of cross bred czechs that have been registered as pure bred, but what would be the use of it as you lot will do nothing about it, not one comment on my posts about the abuse of cws bitchs by passo del lupo, either your all afraid to speak or you all as i think dont give a shit....
Again wrong thread and bad language. (fill in the dots...)
I hope administration of this site does something about this user as soon as possible.
He may have good arguments but expressing them in a totally wrong way.
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