Differences in bonitations...

[Margo]

Originally Posted by massimo

I have never seen you train your dogs and I cannot judge you. But if I try to understand these words... Geryon was protecting himself from you, or better, from something you do to him which he doesn't like.

Yes Massimo - it is almost like you say... ALMOST because he was not protecting himself FROM ME, but from being measured by Sona...
In the dog training you have MANY situations where the dog do not want to do something (sometimes because the dog do not know it is good and nice).
What do you do in such cases? Do you say "my dog do not want to be trained"? And you make NOTHING? "CzW are to stupid to be trained because my dog don't want to do anything and I will not "forse" him to do things he don't like"? Or you show him that training (or bontation) is nothing wrong and dangerous and can be even nice and funny?

In such cases I find always some methods to "forse" the dog (with motivation like snacks, good words, aso.). In Hronec I could give up with Geryon (STUPID DOG DON'T WANT TO BE TOUCHED AND I RESPECT IT) but I think MUCH BETTER solution was just to say him some nice words, to stroke him and show "Sona and bonitation can be cool things".

If you will always give up by training with CzW you will never reach anything... Also not by me - I need much more POSITIVE motivation (like the perfect red wine from Italy) to make some things (like update of the database) earlier than planned...

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

No Mirka - bonitation of Mery is only one part of the bigger problems we have at the moment... And she is the best example... I didn't saw her for a long time... but I read on your pages she has problems to move propertly because her back legs 'tangle' when she move. So I wondered how she can be P1 with such kind of movement problems...
And you must understand my worries about the breed because she is not the only example when dog with problems (not exactly HD but with slack ligaments) get nice note during the bonitation... Just see the famous case in Czech Republic about the bonitation in Prague I mentioned... ASK someone from CZ - they will tell you the story....
Mirka, before you write about paranoia please ask finally somebody from the Czech breeding comittee about the problems I mentioned - about dogs which pass bonitations without any problems even if they have DISQUALIFYING FAULTS I listed...

There was never problem with bonitation of Mery. And I don´t care a bit about your worries, which were not worries but accusations of the worst sort with a goal to throw dirt on me and my dogs. Neither I need to ask anything from Czech breeding committee, don´t change the subject.

All I wanted is a reply to my question, so as why a dog bonitated in Pozna with 64 cm in shoulder is not automatically P14. All I got were attacks and accusations from you and a lot of crap.

I am still waiting for you to withdraw publicly your accusations against me, my kennel and my dogs.

[wolfin]

Massimo, my dogs love me and are crazy to me and i love my dogs very much. You can quest my dogs ourself

Geryon, like say Sonja, is 100% son of Kondor, and have this same character (this can say also Marcela)- he can not stay in the same place longer than 2 seconds and not like things like measurement. and I know this - he always not stay still in dogs show and always must move.
If You see ALL Geryons bonitation You can see he was happy when this have end. he is dog to running but not standing. Yes he have problems like macho - he not like others male, but he not have problems with people.

and IF You wish know who character have he, next thime please come to me and contact with him. I remember in Hronec, You not contact with him, like others people and i think not can say 100% which character have Geryon.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by massimo

Are the recent bonitations mad in Italy:
Recognized or not from Czech and Slovak club?

Well, if it was done exactly accodring to slovak or chzech rules (with character test on chain without owner present), than there is a chance, I don't know officially. But if there is no character test, then for sure no.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

All I wanted is a reply to my question, so as why a dog bonitated in Pozna with 64 cm in shoulder is not automatically P14. All I got were attacks and accusations from you and a lot of crap.

I am still waiting for you to withdraw publicly your accusations against me, my kennel and my dogs.

Oh Mirka - you really have a nerve. FIRST you start topic with attacks on MY KENNEL and bonitation made during meeting organized by ME EVEN if you exactly know the answer for your questons: WHY the dog has the kind of bonitation code and that there are MORE dogs like this even if your country... Really please stop to play saint person - you never asked about such cases before when something like this appeared before, you never started a topic about slovak kind of bonitation when dog from your kennel get P1 although according your "MOST PERFECT CZECH BONITATION RULES" he should be P14 (I know why he is P1 and not P14 and I agree with it but according the code he is P14 and if you would be fair person you will start your posts blaming slovakian bonitation already 3 years ago).

No - you exactly started the topic because of the reasons we all know perfectly... PRIVATE reasons: dog with MY kennel name...

For me it is no problem - we can talk about it.... But the topic include much more problems than the height only: differences between different countries, between another type of judgement and problem of the hiding of faults...
But I see for you it is only great if you have the possibility to attack other people and breeders but when we start to speak about you, your deccisions and your kennel you see it as ACCUSATIONS... If you attack somebody and touch problematic things so be prepared to talk about it in the publicity and do not hide everything and do not try to end the disscusion behind "you blame my kennel - stop it"...
I do not have such kind of problems and I can talk about everything in the public - I really believe in the words "Prawdziwa Cnota Krytyki Się Nie Boi!" (Real virtue is not affraid of critique - if you have nothing bad to hide you should be not affraid of any critique because you can explain everything)...

If you have problem with disscusion please NEVER start topics like this because in such case be prepared you have also to answer some problematic questions...

[loco]

They say that the CZ bonitation does not give anything else than P14 to a maledog that is lower than the minimum of 65 cm.
Is the rule changed in the last past years ?
Was it in the earlier days possible to get P5 in CZ, when your dog was lower than the minimum size??
Because this dog did his bonitation in CZ, but is lower than the minimum but got P5.
http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...le=list&id=745
Ore is this because it is possible to a SL judge, to judge CZ bonitation ??
Groette Martine.

[*Satu]

Originally Posted by wolfin

Satu, You must have bonitation card and make scan and take to this post. And see who is wright in reality.

i know about cm i have example - dogs in young presentation have 68 cm but in bonitation have only 66 cm.

Is not big secret about my dogs bonitation result Elys have code A59,Og,R1,P3

and that code is also in Elys paper.

Any bonitation judges or comitean members are not my frends, I don´t have any dogs from their kennel, I don´t fu*k them,Im not judge. I´m not member of bonitation comitea

I have seen thous peoples (2 times Oskar Dora first in bonitation,second in summer camp)
(Sonja 1st time in summercamp) and Cz judges Only 1st time in Bonitation.)

Im not jealous other dogs results and i don´t want say any bad thinks about any person but still
I´m dreaming about INTERNATIONAL CZW CLUB WHERE ALL COUNTRIES CLUBS CAN COME and TALK VERY OPENLY.

[loco]

Originally Posted by *Satu

I´m dreaming about INTERNATIONAL CZW CLUB WHERE ALL COUNTRIES CLUBS CAN COME and TALK VERY OPENLY.

It is for now a dream, but is is possible .
Groette Martine.

[Liesbeth]

Hi,

I just started to read this discussion, so I'm giving some comments on things that are written some time ago...

Originally Posted by Margo

OK, my question is now about Mery... I know you are not able to breed with her because of the strong dysplasia but bonitation code say NOTHING about dysplasia... It has no influence on it..
.
Were you never astonished about the excellent P1 note Mery get? During the youth presentation in Czech Republic she get P5 (note "good") because of the really visible problems with movement. The problem didn't disappeared and on your web page you wrote nice articles about hydroterapie which is necessary because of the problems with movement Mery has...

Look, despite of the movement problems which she has she get without any problems the EXCELLENT note during the bonition in Belgium... Just perfect code... [-> "is there a different standard for CSW in Belgium?"]

Let's say you have an another female which has the same problems with the movement but they are caused not because of HD but slack ligaments. And the problems are visible... You see - with such female you would get perfect code and breed with her even if it is serious DISQUALIFYING FAULT....
Did you really never wondered about the result you get?

I really like to say that at the time of our bonitation, Ali (Mery) was doing fine and her movements were a lot better (even very good), probably because of the hydrotherapy. I never noticed the 'walking-problems' of Mery before. Only during our last event (training for -right- the bonitation) I saw that she walked like... you know... a dog with HD.
And a bonitation is like a dog show: it shows the dog on one particular day, on one moment,... So maybe Mery's movement was fine during the minute she had to show her movements!

While writing this, I start wondering for whom or for what I'm telling all this... It is completely off-topic, but I feel the urge to share this with all of you. It's insane that people start to 'attack' each other personally. I'm on nobody's side (I say this because it feels like there are different, opposite, 'sides'), but please stop saying all these things about each other. As far as I know Mirka, she only tries to do her best for the breed, in every possible way. And I guess that's the same for Margo and all others here on the forum. So why can't we JUST TALK/DISCUSS without all the other crap... This is worse then politics Or wait... this IS politics

But I'll continue reading. There is also useful information about the bonitation hidden behind the insults etc...

Liesbeth

[Liesbeth]

Originally Posted by Hanka

So great )). Now you can only write notes behind bonitation codes on some club pages . If all clubs wil do the same.......Dream

Great idea. I'll propose the same in Belgium!

Liesbeth

[Liesbeth]

Originally Posted by *Satu

Hanka, take your time and check all bonitation results.


I think WE need INTERNATIONAL CSV CLUB and all breedclubs haves same orgin bonitation and test rules.
if some club/country whant´s strict rules than orgin they can make it.

Also we need more bonitationjudges and that International Club can teach all botitationjudges.

I know very many breeds and they have that kind of INT CLUB.
They have meetings every second year.

I think this is a great idea. We organise our second bonitation in Belgium this year, and it was very difficult to find a judge that suits everyone! Our bonitation will be perfectly official, but there will be always somebody complaining about the nationality of the judge, the way he makes the bonitation, Czech or Slovak, etc...

If there would be an international sort of club who makes sure that all bonitations are comparable etc., that would be just great!

Belgium likes to coöperate

Liesbeth

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by massimo

my personal opinion (so it means nothing ) is that they should get P14 but P14 should be allowed to breed in special conditions monitored by the club.
Otherwise 73cm dogs risk the chance not to be born from 64,5cm ones...
Massimo

Funny that is my pesenal opinion to 1cm difference on some parts of a man makes a small difference thank god !!!

I think it is better that we are harder on real problems like HD/ED and hereditary diseases instead !!! like demand DNA tests by 2010 ???

Regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by *Satu

I´m dreaming about INTERNATIONAL CZW CLUB WHERE ALL COUNTRIES CLUBS CAN COME and TALK VERY OPENLY.

Yes me to Satu, and hopefuly people would bring pencils instead of guns

Regards / Mikael

[jasmine]

This is the "differences in bonitations " topic......."health of the breed" is another topic.....of course you are absolutly right...health is very important.........
but here not this is the main point...and not the 1 cm................

[Mikael]

this Thread "differences in bonitations" had 90 inputs on only 36 hour

is that a forum record ???


Regards / Mikael

[*Satu]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes me to Satu, and hopefuly people would bring pencils instead of guns

Regards / Mikael

How many meetings and CZW owners you have seen only fighting??
fighting dosn´t help this breed at all.

Words can fight whitout weapons....

[woland77]

From different months I am working to an articles that draws note of the differences in the bonitation. I have assisted and participated with my dogs in the last months in three bonitazionis to compare her, with rules of the Czech republic to Pavia, with Italian rules to Montecatini, with rules of the Slovak republic to Heingenbrucken. I have set here officially besides a lot of the present matters to the Club Slovacco in how much holding of guardianship of the race. I will just have answered I will complete this analysis and I will make her/it public. I can anticipate that differences are a lot of, not only to level of carachter test.I have opinion the opinion that for the good of the race the bonitation is goes unified putting the most remarkable Club around a table. But on first should be decide that type of dog wants to fix in the CZW. in Italy a lot people would be wanted him in the group 5, in the Czech republic they would be wanted him a true job dog..the difference is not only carachter, but it is also in the safeguard of the rusticity that the Czw has inherited from the wolf..if there is not before accord in what the direction that the selection of this race must take must be, there can be no accord on the rules of bonitation.

[saschia]

Woland, it is true that we need to make the bonitations and bonitation code unified internationally, and the Slovak and Czech clubs recognize this need and are cooperating in this regard. On the other hand, this is not a thing that can be decided upon by elected members of the club presidia, it needs input of experts in the field of dog breeding and behavior, and as all the people involved can only work on this in their spare time, it naturally takes some time.

But there is no question of allocation of Czechoslovak Wolfdog to different FCI group that it is now - it was created as a working breed and we intend to keep it that way. This I can say as a representative of the guarantee of the breed - the Slovak Club does not intend any change of FCI group and will not in forseable future agree with it.

[hanninadina]

It seems to me that everyone is in wolfdog meeting shows this weekend in italy and germany. that gave me time to read the whole thread which increased so fast.

Margo, you know I like you and your family(dogfamily too) very much!!! But I am really wondering why you put names in the ring. 2-3 weeks ago someone pissed at me here in english forum without telling my name. But everyone who knows me and my dogs knew she meant me. I replied by saying it is me, I did not bother others, and explained the truth! I think Przemek was it who cancelled every one of my statements. And the lie stayed here in forum til now.

So, we all know that is your personal homepage but we are a bit disappoionted how you measured her the statements...

I was wondering too, a 64 cm male got P 1. But, I am in breeing for Briards - Berger de Brie - french herdings dogs for 10 years. And there it is possible and no fault, if a female or male dog is 1 cm less or more in hight as the standard says, if everything else is without faults. And that is the right answer from Margo, I think that this must be possible. But this has to be add in standard if it is not written there til this very moment.

Here in this thread are some different more threads. Talking about bonitation in hronec this year. 2 dogs were mentioned. I was really disappointed when I read that Daiva is using electric collar for training. Daiva in germany electric collar is forbidden!!! And no one needs this damned thing. When I read your comments here as a breeder, judge, dog owner, I thought everytime wow, it seems as if she knows what she talking about... I saw you in Poznan one week ago. What can I say, my friend Miguel visit Geryon and I saw it from a few meters away. He behaved to people very friendly and well. But when I passed thru with Myla and Tala about 40 m away he started barking at us and jumping in his leash which was around a tree.

So, I have not easy but hyperactiv Myla. Please see bonitation code from last year from Sona. She is perfect. In every ring she behaved well. I can not understand why it was not possible for you as a sooo experienced breeder, judge and so on, that you were not able to handle your own dog?

Second thing, my "friend" Michael Eichhorn: everyone who knows him knows that he as a dog trainer, dogtravelmanager, breeder and owner of 5 csw is very hard to his dogs. I am wondering, Massimo, that you try to help him.... You know as we did, that Michael beats his dogs on the mouth when they don´t behave like he wants. And even his 9 year old ones. With this age and as a dog trainer I thought a dog has to listen to first comand/word and does not need being beaten up. In summer camp 2004 in germany, lots of people saw that he was crossing a sleeping 6 month old puppy which woke up because he was going over his head. The dog tried to get to Michael, he turned around and kick this poor little one with his feet.

So, Massimo, if a tongue got blue, you know as we do, that he puts the dog out of air. You called it he was hard with collar. It is no wonder that Gorbi was not able to do anything and let Sona do her work. I konw Gorbi from last year bonitation in germany. He was the boss of is owners and barking at every dog and people with his ruta in sky. I guess Michael did choose the wrong owners for him. This could happen but this gave him not the right to be so brutal with a dog. And I am wondering why Sona who knows that Gorbi has a problem let him pass with P 1??? In normal live without being beaten up he behaves like hell!!!! But if interesting people see the result from bonitation they could thing wow nice dog. But this not true!

Christian

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Margo

We plan to do it but many notes are gone because nobody published them (Czech club started to publish it first since few years).

There is other problem - you can not compare the notes in the slovak bonitation cards where you have listed really SMALL faults and the czech bonitation cards where you have listed even SERIOUS faults which were not put in the bonitation code because of the danger the dogs can get P14 because of it...

Originally Posted by Hanka

To Vaiva:
In note you can read open lips, but in real it is not Really open lips, but only very little. It is just like: "danger-children of this dogs can have open lips when somebody will combinate two dogs with this small mistake"....

When you are a breeder from west Europe (who is not able to go to all bonitations) it is very difficult to judge a right male for your female, when you don’t know also the small details…….. And before I visit a interesting male I can read the Bonitation results, but I miss the small details!

I am glad there is Bonitation, so there is some kind of judgement / measurement about a dog of this breed.
That is the reason I did youth presentation and Bonitation with her. And I am satisfied with my P3 female, but I also would love her when she would have get P14! So that is not my point!

I can imagine that there are differences in measurement (we did measure for example some dogs before we went to Pozna, and some did grow or shrink on Bonitation. We are not experts, so maybe we did measure wrong!) When a dog is feeling uncomfortable, he/she has in much of the cases not the same height when he/she is relaxed.

My female did youth presentation in Hostivice when she was almost 2 years old and did get : A61 E1 H12 Oh P3 (sm)
Now she is did Bonitation in Pozna and did get A60 E3 M6 Of R1 P3.
So she did shrink, her eyes were changing form light brown to dark, she did loose the fault H12 and did get a new one M6 (because of some light nails)

Of course I know my female and her small faults. That is why I am for a combination always looking for a male with not the same faults! But how reliable are Bonitation results when they are not mentioning all the “small faults” (and riscs for a combination)?
And of course I can see small faults when I meet a male in reality, but then I first have to drive hundreds of km’s

And by the way in the Bonitation result of my female on wolfdog is now: Og but in my official paper is Of ! And is was obvious that she did not deserve g with her reaction on the threatening!
So this a small mistake in the info on wolfdog , so please Margo will you change this?

Originally Posted by Margo

You know what is the REAL problem? It is the code "Px" Remove it as many people suggest... After such step there will be no fight about the Slovak bonitation and the czech comittee will have no more any reason to hide the faults... And the MAIN GOAL will be fullfiled - in the bonitation you will REALLY have all BIG faults and SMALL FAULTS will be written into the notes... They will write it because NOBODY will have any OFFICIAL reasons to hide them....

Originally Posted by Hanka

So great )). Now you can only write notes behind bonitation codes on some club pages . If all clubs wil do the same.......Dream

I hope this all will work out in future and there will come international rules for all clubs!