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Old 28-01-2009, 19:08   #1
Wolfsirius
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Default Wolfdog org - official page?

Just came into my mind. How official page is wolfdog.org?
Who is responsible of all data/info/results written here?
Is all data unofficial only inform by owners, breeders and people around the breed, or is all/any info confirmed somehow before publish?
(litters,pedigrees,showresults,health results, working results, fotos and so on)

This is very good page with lot of info, but if there is mistakes / faults in data / results, who is responding about this in the last case? (or anyone?)
as i noticed that very often info/data is posted by somebody else than owner of the dog.

Thank you all, who keep up this page, is very big (volunteer) work.

-Suski
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Old 28-01-2009, 21:49   #2
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-obviously there is no confirmation, may be except for HD results (in Italy you cane read them on the official italian kennel club website).

Is to us to help and improve this website, cause i think we can't ask more to the administrators.

May be you can start it Wolfsirious, giving to the database some HD results of adult dogs of your property.
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Old 28-01-2009, 22:25   #3
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Default HD results

I think it’s important fore us to help Margo and her crew to dabble check the HD results in are own country’s, It’s hard fore her to dabble check them all and in different language on different data base whit different code systems...and sometimes you need to be a member to se the results...

I will dabble check the HD results in Sweden and also put the results on my Swedish website.

Suski, you can take Finland if you wont to, but I´am already in contact whit Fkk about the wrong / falls HD reults over there...and Margo is already informed...that is way one HD result from Finland is now X instead of A/A...It is now a legal mater and I can not say more at the moment...

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 28-01-2009, 22:42   #4
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In Finland you can see OFFICIAL HD results (ONLY xrayed in FINLAND accepted) OFFICIAL SHOWRESULTS (Only shows in FINLAND) OFFICIAL WORKINGRESULTS (ONLY in FINLAND) from the database of Finnish kennelclub. This database do not have any info example about puppies exported (any results of exported puppies).

In Finland HD results (x-rays) is judged by ONLY one person, and this is very bad system. As long as system is like this i (and many other) do not see any sense to send x-rays to Finnish kennelclub for judging.
(still, i x-ray my dogs) Here is one example about hd -results judged by FIN kennelclub, and result of complaining to Nordic kennelunion : (from C/B to A/B) http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmK...=FIN49053/05&R=

I pay (read: own) x-rays of my dogs, and after vet will send it to Finnish kennelclub they will keep it there as owned by them (Kennelclub) we are not very happy with this system, and more and more breeders take x-rays of their dogs, but do not send it to kennelclub, but ask judgement from vet (or few vets).

Finnish Kennelclub is "sligthly" against the breed, and in year 2000 as Molly was x-rayed, (x-rays left from vet as A/A, came from kennelclub as B/C)
x-rayed again, same result - i called there and asked about results ; person who judges x-rays (is still the same) asked from me, why the hell i ever imported dog of this breed to Finland? She told me that we do not need this kind of dogs in Finland at all. So.. Next x-rayed dog was daughter of Molly, x-rays left from vet as B/B and came from kennelclub as C/D. That was enough to me.
If you want to complain it cost double price, and if result stay same, you do not get any money back, if result get's different you will get complaining payment back. And if you want to complain to Nordic kennelunion it costs 4 times more.
So, the link above everyone can count how much costs x-rays for this dog (in fact imported from CZ, even is not CsV)

To take X-rays costs 150-200 eur + 21,20 to kennelclub (and if result is not satisfied you, then double, or even 4 times more) THEN if you want YOUR OWN X-RAYS back from kennelclub for example to show to someone (those you payed to vet as it was taken, and legally you own..) YOU MUST PAY 42,70. This is nonsense, you must pay from x-rays you payed once already.

ALL results taken before dog is registered in Finland is not possible to see in database, not even after registration.
Registration (dog from abroad) to Finland costs 68 eur, and i do not see any sense to register any of my imported dogs to our kennelclub until i have to. (possible litters)

As i had spoken to many people about x-rays (even dogs are more than hips) there had been very interesting discussions about differences between countries. Dog can be D/D in Finland, and same dog easily B/B in somewhere else.

Few more examples here:
http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmK...N33054/02&R=39
and
http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmK...40979/01&R=165
These are both from D/D to C/C
and these similary you can find as many as you have time to search from FIN database.

Then is one example about eye disease which suddendly disappear as research abroad: http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmK...N28382/00&R=39

Who knows how it goes in real. In Finland seem to be very bad way to handle results, and database.

-So, i don't have anything to send to WD.org, as i do not have official x-rays, and momentally we do not show our dogs so much, as we have small kids.. who keep us very busy. Maybe someday.

-Suski
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Last edited by Wolfsirius; 28-01-2009 at 23:34.
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Old 28-01-2009, 22:58   #5
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Mikael; the dog i think you are speaking about is x-rayed, and x-rays is here by me, (still) even the dog is not owned by me. Vet took the x-rays , and we didn't send it to kennelclub, reason why, you can read from above i wrote about it just.

In fact, offspring of this female is x-rayed (abroad ) with good results.
Is your dog x-rayed already?

If i look up the pedigrees of my own dogs, (imported) there is lot of missing info about HD results from ancestors, even i think most of them must be x-rayed. (rules for origin countries)
And in fact, i am interested about many more things in the dogs than only hips, or show / workingresults.

Momentally i do not have time to keep up personal database about x-rays, or any other results, (except my own dogs, or dogs from me) even i would like to..

-Suski
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Walk beside them and protect them my entire life.
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Last edited by Wolfsirius; 28-01-2009 at 23:31.
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Old 28-01-2009, 23:40   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfsirius View Post
Mikael; the dog i think you are speaking about is x-rayed, and x-rays is here by me. (still) Vet took the x-rays , and we didn't send it to kennelclub, reason why, you can read from above i wrote about it just.

In fact, offspring of this female is x-rayed (abroad ) with good results.
Is your dog x-rayed already?
-Suski
I do not blame you or your kennel Suski...my report to the Fkk is not about you !!!

No, Hronec has no x-ray yet, but the legal mater is not exactly about him...But I will x-ray him very sone, when he is about 18 month old. But if he is A/A or not has nothing to do whit the legal mater...

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 01-02-2009, 18:59   #7
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Question HD results in Finland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfsirius View Post
Vet took the x-rays , and we didn't send it to kennelclub, reason why, you can read from above i wrote about it just.

-Suski
Is there no way to do a Penn Hip X-ray in Finland ???

That way the result will be more exact as I understand it,
and (no) judgement but a measurement instead.

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 04-02-2009, 19:44   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
Is there no way to do a Penn Hip X-ray in Finland ???

That way the result will be more exact as I understand it,
and (no) judgement but a measurement instead.

Best regards / Mikael
No, there was no Penn-Hip vet in Finland

Nearest is in Sweden, Poland, Denmark or Germany...www.pennhip.org
But I think that F.C.I law say you must X-ray in your own contry ???

Regards / Mikael
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Old 04-02-2009, 20:25   #9
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Hi, yes you must x-ray in "home-country" BUT you are allowed to send the pictures to another country for checking.. I know because some other breeders with "rare" breed in Finland have sent their pictures for checking to a country where they know "more" about the breed.
A woman working for finnish kennelclub told me that this is a possibility.
For breeding Czw in finland you don't need to have x-rayed dogs. Finnish kennelclub don't demand it.
But of course I will x-ray my own dogs so that I know they are healthy. And I know every good breeder do x-ray their dogs and think of future health.

Best regards
Jenny
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Old 04-02-2009, 20:55   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Backman View Post
Hi, yes you must x-ray in "home-country" BUT you are allowed to send the pictures to another country for checking.. I know because some other breeders with "rare" breed in Finland have sent their pictures for checking to a country where they know "more" about the breed.

A woman working for finnish kennelclub told me that this is a possibility.

Best regards
Jenny
Thanks fore the answer Jenny
Maby this is something fore all CsV breeder in Finland to do...
If Fkk is no good at X-ray photos and they wont a official HD result ???

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 04-02-2009, 22:16   #11
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Mikael, there is momentally 2 CsV breeders in Finland.
As far as i know, matings made in Finland,
dogs are x-rayed, at least unofficially.
Please, remember, that dog is more than only hips.
And, dysplasy can cause from "bad owner" too.
If dog is too fat, feeded badly,
wrong excercise in very young age and so on..
So, let's take care about the breed totality.
And, once again, let's take care about new owners as well. This is not breed for everyone.

-Suski
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Old 06-02-2009, 17:22   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfsirius View Post
Mikael, there is momentally 2 CsV breeders in Finland.
As far as i know, matings made in Finland,
dogs are x-rayed, at least unofficially.
Please, remember, that dog is more than only hips.

-Suski
Unofficially x-rays has no value in Finland or in any other country nether, a specially not for a puppy buyer…

Reason
1, The vet is not approved x-ray specialist.
2, You might know the vet in person, you are a vet or work as a vetassistance.
3, It is to easy to fake a unofficial x-ray.

And as far as I know by talking to the Fkk, vets in Finland are not allowed by law to give unofficial x-ray results neither…

And yes, I know and agree that other things are important fore breeding to, but that does not make HD x-rays less important, and as far as I know it is the biggest health problem on the CsV breed…

If Fkk is the problem as you clearly are saying, way not do as Jenny Backman suggest, and send the x-ray to a another country fore evaluation ??? if now Fkk think it is OK !!!

Best regards / Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 06-02-2009 at 17:25.
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Old 06-02-2009, 18:33   #13
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Yes, Mikael. That is correct.
As a puppybuyer you can always ask about x-rays, or any other things you are interested. And, you are the one who choose where you will buy your pup.
And as a breeder i always tell about my dogs, and as i wrote here already, all of my dogs do not have official x-rays. Is nonsense to lie about this as every pup buyer can ask official paper from x-rays very easily.
I have x-rays of my dogs, (HD/OD/BACK) and puppybuyer can see those, or have copy of those to show for vet he/she wants to. (if want to)

I also have DNA results from my CsV pups/litters. OFFICIAL.

and :

1, The vet is not approved x-ray specialist.
in Finland there is vet's who also work in FKK hip panel too. So, can be,
but often is not, that is correct.

2, You might know the vet in person, you are a vet or work as a vetassistance.
OF COURSE, there is also countries where you get good results with money.. or there is always people faking with many ways.. EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE. And.. what if you are a vet, or vet assistant, and you will take x-rays from other dog, which you know is healthy, and will send in names of other one.. ? EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE. Also in the dogworld.

3, It is to easy to fake a unofficial x-ray.
Is also TOO EASY TO FAKE OFFICIAL X-RAYS, i know one case personal, in other breed.. amazing, but truth. And very shame.

Only difference in my unofficial x-rays to official is that never sent to FKK. Is 100% same x-ray as official, with ID numbers, i just didn't send it to FKK. So, possible to send to FKK if want to.

There is possibility to x-ray dog in other country too, and is not difficult. Momentally i do not see any reason to do that, for me this way is enough. I am not ready (and momentally i do not have any possibilities) to travel with my dog (s) because of x-rays for many thousand kilometers.

I have 2 cases with official x-rays also so, that we waite hips B/C, came A/A,
and we waite elbows 1/1, came 0/0 (on other breeds)
Did i complain? NO..

I hope you are happy with your dog, even, it's parents not x-rayed officially both, i think he is a great companion to you, and i really wish all the best for you with your dog, even the dog is not from me.

-Suski
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Old 06-02-2009, 19:55   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfsirius View Post
I hope you are happy with your dog, even, i think he is a great companion to you, and i really wish all the best for you with your dog, even the dog is not from me.

-Suski
Thanks fore all your answers Suski

And yes I´m happy whit him and love him very very much

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 26-02-2009, 19:20   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfsirius View Post
Just came into my mind. How official page is wolfdog.org?
Who is responsible of all data/info/results written here?
Is all data unofficial only inform by owners, breeders and people around the breed, or is all/any info confirmed somehow before publish?
(litters,pedigrees,showresults,health results, working results, fotos and so on)

This is very good page with lot of info, but if there is mistakes / faults in data / results, who is responding about this in the last case? (or anyone?)
as i noticed that very often info/data is posted by somebody else than owner of the dog.
There are different sources.

- We get the information from dog show catalogues, internet pages. Breeders send us information about their litters, and the owners about their own dogs. Such information is added to the database and marked as "possible". Or better said "unofficial".

- We get information from the official registries - club magazines and pedigree books. Such information is added to the database and marked as "official".

At the moment the information official / unofficial is visible only for us but in the new database it will be visible for all users. So it will be easy to see which data is "sure" and which not.


BUT.... there will be always some mistakes. Especially when it comes to the data about the breeders and owners.
The reason is simple - there are mistakes and wrong data even in the official registries. We found some wrong data even in the old lines (for example the "problem of two Maxa's ) in the Czech pedigree book by CMKU.

So we try to keep the data as correct as we can. But it will be never possible to have everything 100% correct. Even if we will have the data compared with the official pedigrees...

Sometimes it is really hard to keep it correct and the last litters are the best examples. The French breeder send information about puppies born in his kennel and the information about this French litter was added to the database. Later we get official information from Holland were the SAME litter was registered as Dutch litter. And it was the reason why the same litter was listed twice in the database...

There was even more crazy story. We get information from one Italian breeder that their dogs will have a litter in France by their friends. I added it. After it I get an angry email from the French breeder that it is wrong and it is not his litter and I must change it - list this litter as Italian litter. I changed it. In the end I get final information about this puppies where it was written the puppies will have...the French kennel name. So I had to change it AGAIN. As you can see there can be strange stories even about the information sent by the breeders about their OWN litters...

The same is with owners.... sometimes they are not sure about the data about their own dogs and they wait months till they get the pedigree and can send us the correct data. Sometimes they get even wrong information about their own dogs from the breeder and first when they have the pedigree they find out the name of the dog is different as the breeder told them. Sometimes even the dog is wrong - other chip number as written on the pedigree...

People make mistakes... And the only solution is to send us correction every time you will find a mistake in the database... We will be really grateful for it...
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