What is this?

massimo · 08-09-2009, 01:47

Guess what this is....

Pics are from a friend... You wish you owned a wolf too? no...it's just a product italian breeder...
Yep...that's what Italian breeding can do...
massimo

Backman · 08-09-2009, 05:56

Wow, Very very beautiful !!

Hanka · 08-09-2009, 10:37

What is official name of this............wolfdog?

massimo · 08-09-2009, 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

What is official name of this............wolfdog?

it has Od Uhosti blood in it too...

Nothing to do with Mutara, if you are curious!!
Only problem is that the same bloodline of many many other CSW in italy...but never till now have I seen one come out like this.
For your curiosity
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d10707.html

Hanka · 08-09-2009, 10:53

Wow, I never thought it has Mutara blood

, because this animal is nice

.
But when I see in it´s pedigree some names of kennel, I don´t belive it is pure breed wolfdog.

massimo · 08-09-2009, 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

Wow, I never thought it has Mutara blood

, because this animal is nice

.
But when I see in it´s pedigree some names of kennel, I don´t belive it is pure breed wolfdog.

??
Hanka...please...no witchhunt!

what kennel don't you believe? Od Uhosti?

Trust me... it's wolfdog. Hard to believe I know... but it's the truth.
massimo

starjumper · 08-09-2009, 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

Wow, I never thought it has Mutara blood

, because this animal is nice

.

I agree...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

But when I see in it´s pedigree some names of kennel, I don´t belive it is pure breed wolfdog.

...but this is really an unfair way of thinking.

You can't blame and damage a kennel (casa della rosa) just because they take their dogs from passo del lupo ten years ago... when things like mutaras (that are not an italian idea

) didn't even exist... look at the dates, PdL was at their first litters...

I own neither a "casa della rosa" nor a "pdl" wolfdog. It's just unfair.

jennyw1 · 10-02-2010, 20:12

I think there are a lot of diffrent types of Csw and this is a fantastic one!

Mikael · 10-02-2010, 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by jennyw1

I think there are a lot of diffrent types of Csw and this is a fantastic one!

Hmmmmmm... yes it is...

But the question one must ask is way do the breed look more and more differant when it is to look more and more similar and fixed for every generation

??? And way is there so extreme differance on the puppy´s sometimes in the same litter

???

Therefor I got one more question for you all...

What is this ???

Very best regards / Mikael

jennyw1 · 11-02-2010, 00:23

I guess some things you can get quikly (and maby things you do not want) and other things can take some more time to show genetic.But Csw is a young breed and everyone have there own picture of the ultimate wolfdog.And i think its good that they are differenses and in the same time place for that in the standard.

solowolf · 13-02-2010, 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Hmmmmmm... yes it is...

But the question one must ask is way do the breed look more and more differant when it is to look more and more similar and fixed for every generation

??? And way is there so extreme differance on the puppy´s sometimes in the same litter

???

Therefor I got one more question for you all...

What is this ???

Very best regards / Mikael

hi, i have mentioned this subject lots of times and it is ignored but now that you mention it Mikael as i have often said there is a growing difference in the appearence of the CWS from different countries and its very clear, the type is not being mentained and is slipping away by the day, the photos of the wolfdog at start of this post is good example, so is this a registered CWS? if so then WHO ADDED THE NEW WOLF BLOOD LINE AT LEAST TWO GENERATIONS AGO AND DID NOT SAY........ like most of you have commented it is a beautiful animal of that there is no doubt, i have owned CWS for over 10yrs but i have owned other wolfdogs and wolves for many more years, as you all know i did use male CWS on wolves over the years and i do have some very beautiful animals, but i have never had one nice remark made about mine only all the s..t from people on wolfdog.org for crossing cws with wolf, big difference is I DONT REGISTER THEM AS CWS,,,, why would any one who can breed such beautiful animals want to hide them behind the name of another breed??? if you look on my web site at this photo http://ukwolfdogs.com/kizzy_pups_18....ta1_type=large it is a third generation from wolf and cws cross, seems someone in Europe isnt happy with the way there cws look. as for why do pups from same litters sometimes look so different,this is not uncommon in dog breeding with new breeds but as you state as time goes by and the generations grow the type will become steady, if you add a wolf to the lines and breed forward with just cws then in 3 generations the type will be as normal again with the only trace of the wolf will be on paper, In France wolf has been added to both CWS and Saarloos but as normal it is ignored, you seem to be noticing changes Mikael maybe you should look at lots more pics on wolfdog.org and also remember there are now lots of litters bred that dont even reach this data base, and one last thing dont forget there are coydogs in Europe...... regards pacino

wolflinx · 13-02-2010, 02:25

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9689
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d10707.html
2 cws

13-02-2010, 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by solowolf

hi, i have mentioned this subject lots of times and it is ignored but now that you mention it Mikael as i have often said there is a growing difference in the appearence of the CWS from different countries and its very clear, the type is not being mentained and is slipping away by the day, the photos of the wolfdog at start of this post is good example, so is this a registered CWS? if so then WHO ADDED THE NEW WOLF BLOOD LINE AT LEAST TWO GENERATIONS AGO AND DID NOT SAY........ like most of you have commented it is a beautiful animal of that there is no doubt, i have owned CWS for over 10yrs but i have owned other wolfdogs and wolves for many more years, as you all know i did use male CWS on wolves over the years and i do have some very beautiful animals, but i have never had one nice remark made about mine only all the s..t from people on wolfdog.org for crossing cws with wolf, big difference is I DONT REGISTER THEM AS CWS,,,, why would any one who can breed such beautiful animals want to hide them behind the name of another breed??? if you look on my web site at this photo http://ukwolfdogs.com/kizzy_pups_18....ta1_type=large it is a third generation from wolf and cws cross, seems someone in Europe isnt happy with the way there cws look. as for why do pups from same litters sometimes look so different,this is not uncommon in dog breeding with new breeds but as you state as time goes by and the generations grow the type will become steady, if you add a wolf to the lines and breed forward with just cws then in 3 generations the type will be as normal again with the only trace of the wolf will be on paper, In France wolf has been added to both CWS and Saarloos but as normal it is ignored, you seem to be noticing changes Mikael maybe you should look at lots more pics on wolfdog.org and also remember there are now lots of litters bred that dont even reach this data base, and one last thing dont forget there are coydogs in Europe...... regards pacino

Just from a breeding standpoint in general (not touching the addition of wolves in breeding programs with a 12 ft pole!) it is in absolutely no way necessary to "have to" add wolves into the breed to maintain or work towards a standard. It has everything to do with different breeders having different aesthetic rather than losing wolf blood. Look at EVERY other dog breed in the world and you'll find variation. The best example is the GSD, which the CSV was even bred from. Look at how drastic the differences are between dogs of different countries, and then within those countries, the differences between working and show lines. They don't even look like the same breed!

That's also only considering people that are working to better a breed by working towards a standard. What about the people that just don't care about anything but selling puppies? I'm a groomer and work with dogs and see on average 15-20 different dogs a day, usually similar breeds. I can have 5 dogs, all "bichons" according to their owners, and none of them will look anything alike!

The only way to really unify the standard of a breed in my opinion is to make the standard very specific, so it's not open to interpretation. Unfortunately, this often times is the cause of breeds being taken to the extreme because people breed for really inane things in the standard. I'm personally ok with a little breed variation based on taste if it means the standard is open enough to allow for a breeder's specific vision of the perfect CSV.

solowolf · 13-02-2010, 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicky

Just from a breeding standpoint in general (not touching the addition of wolves in breeding programs with a 12 ft pole!) it is in absolutely no way necessary to "have to" add wolves into the breed to maintain or work towards a standard. It has everything to do with different breeders having different aesthetic rather than losing wolf blood. Look at EVERY other dog breed in the world and you'll find variation. The best example is the GSD, which the CSV was even bred from. Look at how drastic the differences are between dogs of different countries, and then within those countries, the differences between working and show lines. They don't even look like the same breed!

That's also only considering people that are working to better a breed by working towards a standard. What about the people that just don't care about anything but selling puppies? I'm a groomer and work with dogs and see on average 15-20 different dogs a day, usually similar breeds. I can have 5 dogs, all "bichons" according to their owners, and none of them will look anything alike!

The only way to really unify the standard of a breed in my opinion is to make the standard very specific, so it's not open to interpretation. Unfortunately, this often times is the cause of breeds being taken to the extreme because people breed for really inane things in the standard. I'm personally ok with a little breed variation based on taste if it means the standard is open enough to allow for a breeder's specific vision of the perfect CSV.

hi, yes i agree you dont need wolf in the czech anymore, and variations to certain degree must be excepted in every breed, but the degree in variation is now getting bit rediculous and on numerous occasions i have visited wolfdog data base looking for new lines to buy or for stud dogs to use and i always get new surprise ever time, i am for selective breeding and useing the best i can get, if i dont get then i dont breed, and i have bred in the past with other breeds and have used the best and it didnt work, so its not all pick the best and it great, dog breeding to me is like playing russian roullette, you can look at pedigree see dog is compatible, then is it complete out cross or are you line or in breeding, the health checks are good and you breed, what do you get,,,, you can only do your best and use your experience and judgement, but if it dosent work i will tell my friends and show what i have bred, i learned alot in dogs from listening to people who have been doing it longer than me, the CWS is a fantastic breed, i will never be without one but people need to work hard and work together and this breed will do well in the future, my friend and i bred Akitas for many years, my bitch redwitch dancer produced the top winning dog of Austrilia and a bitch was top winning bitch USA, but i stopped breeding Akitas because no one would import new blood lines, the gene pool was shrinking and i got out, i wanted no part in what was to become of the akita in uk, and im glad i did,, i have only bred 3 litters of CWS and i have one due soon i hope but i have imported some dogs, one of which i will not use but give away as pet for it did not come to what i expected, i made a mistake it was costly but i admit it was partly my fault, but i wont breed like some to try and recoup my money back. when the kennel club insist on dna before pedigree is isued i will be happy, untill then we watch,,,,,,,,pacino

Mikael · 13-02-2010, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by solowolf

hi, i have mentioned this subject lots of times and it is ignored but now that you mention it Mikael...

As for why do pups from same litters sometimes look so different,this is not uncommon in dog breeding with new breeds but as you state as time goes by and the generations grow the type will become steady...

regards pacino

Exactly my point !!!

Now is this a steady litter

??? I do not think so...

Maybe one or two of them look as a CsV standard dog, the rest look like mixes to me...
but it is the same litter

Iuna ---Casa della Rosa--- X Dredo ---dell'Irco Sortiere--- litter from 2008-11-14

>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d5238.html

And I think it did started about here...
>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d4002.html

Now what do you think ???

Very best regards / Mikael

Nebulosa · 13-02-2010, 20:15

I think that the similarity of the the litter ended to be, in this case, about what a good photografer can do.
If you forget about it and try to evaluate the dog without took in consideration the magic of the photo, you will see that all them have some similar characteristics.

solowolf · 14-02-2010, 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Exactly my point !!!

Now is this a steady litter

??? I do not think so...

Maybe one or two of them look as a CsV standard dog, the rest look like mixes to me...
but it is the same litter

Iuna ---Casa della Rosa--- X Dredo ---dell'Irco Sortiere--- litter from 2008-11-14

>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d5238.html

And I think it did started about here...
>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d4002.html

Now what do you think ???

Very best regards / Mikael

i think cameras where invented before the date the pups where born so maybe we can get photos of the bitch? there are plenty of pics of other bitchs used by this breeder, i think there is something very not correct here and i think everyone is due explaination, i do not believe all these dogs in pics are from same litter.

lupis · 14-02-2010, 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Maybe one or two of them look as a CsV standard dog, the rest look like mixes to me...
but it is the same litter

Are not mixes but CLC register in ENCI - no mixed with anything. Look some strange because the same different eyes has the father Anouk (in pedigree Dredo) and many his puppies have such strange eyes but are real CLC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

It is also not mix but many young dogs here in Italia have hanging ears. It is common fault but dogs here - for me one very common for dogs from Passo del Lupos lineage.

solowolf · 12-02-2010, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

Guess what this is....

Pics are from a friend... You wish you owned a wolf too? no...it's just a product italian breeder...
Yep...that's what Italian breeding can do...
massimo

i would say on the off chance it is definately one of these,ha ha

solowolf · 12-02-2010, 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by solowolf

i would say on the off chance it is definately one of these,ha ha

sorry can not get pic to upload here is link have a very very good look at this pic then make your own mind up, shape of head, narrow chest, coat, ect ect,,,
http://ukwolfdogs.com/kizzy_pups_18....ta1_type=large

08-09-2009, 01:47	#1
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	What is this? Guess what this is.... Pics are from a friend... You wish you owned a wolf too? no...it's just a product italian breeder... Yep...that's what Italian breeding can do... massimo __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

08-09-2009, 10:53	#5
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Wow, I never thought it has Mutara blood, because this animal is nice . But when I see in it´s pedigree some names of kennel, I don´t belive it is pure breed wolfdog.

13-02-2010, 02:25	#12
wolflinx http://www.flickr.com/pho Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Cattolica Posts: 4,130	http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9689 http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d10707.html 2 cws __________________ Talità Kum. Noi siamo Alakanuk .

13-02-2010, 20:15	#16
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	I think that the similarity of the the litter ended to be, in this case, about what a good photografer can do. If you forget about it and try to evaluate the dog without took in consideration the magic of the photo, you will see that all them have some similar characteristics. __________________

08-09-2009, 05:56	#2
Backman Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Finland Posts: 22	Wow, Very very beautiful !!

08-09-2009, 10:37	#3
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	What is official name of this............wolfdog?

10-02-2010, 20:12	#8
jennyw1 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 20	I think there are a lot of diffrent types of Csw and this is a fantastic one!

11-02-2010, 00:23	#10
jennyw1 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 20	I guess some things you can get quikly (and maby things you do not want) and other things can take some more time to show genetic.But Csw is a young breed and everyone have there own picture of the ultimate wolfdog.And i think its good that they are differenses and in the same time place for that in the standard.